Woosh...over the head...

[AtwasAwamps]

Have you ever had a moment where someone…just completely missed the point in a discussion about a game? Whether it boils down to plot, DMing, mechanics, whatever…someone who just was not looking at the same page you were? I forward a recent example of a conversation I had:

Me: I would never take Weapon Focus as a feat unless it was a prereq for a class I wanted to be in or if I had somehow completely run out of feats and was playing a fighter to level 20.

Friend: Why? Weapon Focus is a solid feat. Any melee fighter should take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.

Me: I completely disagree. I think both of those feats are subpar in comparison to any other feat you could take to accomplish a goal within a character build.

Friend: Fair enough, but I think that’s mostly because you’re a flavor guy and we’re talking about numbers.

…

::headdesk::

[Kol Korran]

one of my players has played a really absent minded wizard. "played" might be a bit of a stretch, since the guy is really absent minded himself. in RL he's a physicist and an engineer, but the guy can't seem to understand which dice you roll to hit, and which one is for the damage.

but it extends to more than that- conversing with him is like having a conversation with a few other people, all of them talking to each other and exchanging ideas, and sometimes, just sometimes one of them notices what you are saying.

He's a source of many frustrations, but many laughs as well. he quit gaming after some time, and have almost nearly forgot he ever played. ("D&D? what's that? some sort of band. a game? can i play? no, she's getting home later.... <loosing the thread of conversation>)

so yeah, not exactly what you're talking about, but close.

[Sinfire Titan]

Make sure to point out the fact that Weapon Finesse is effectively Weapon Focus on crack. Even with the Elite Array, Weapon Finesse is twice the feat Weapon Focus is.

[BRC]

Make sure to point out the fact that Weapon Finesse is effectively Weapon Focus on crack. Even with the Elite Array, Weapon Finesse is twice the feat Weapon Focus is.

I use weapon focus all the time, but that's mainly for NPC's I'm trying to make quickly and who I don't want to have to spend lots of time thinking about or running.

[AtwasAwamps]

I use weapon focus all the time, but that's mainly for NPC's I'm trying to make quickly and who I don't want to have to spend lots of time thinking about or running.

Yeeeah...half my NPC fodder has toughness + weapon focus.

That way when they run into the guys with heavy repeating crossbows hiding behind church pews with rapid shot, precise shot, and crossbow sniper, they can cry.

[valadil]

One of my players was incapable of reading odd numbered paragraphs. I'd send him an email and he'd just miss half of it. Maybe it was even ones, I don't know. But he never acted confused. He insisted that he understood what was going on. When pressed he just made stuff up and claimed that it came from me. I honestly don't think he knew what was in game and what he'd fabricated.

This was especially problematic because he was the assassin hiding in the party. He didn't know if his own backstory was true or not and it made running the game nigh impossible.

[bosssmiley]

Have you ever had a moment where someone…just completely missed the point in a discussion about a game? Whether it boils down to plot, DMing, mechanics, whatever…someone who just was not looking at the same page you were?

I make this a fixed policy when posting.

Oh. Wait...

[MlleRouge]

I have a friend who is very fluff-centric, which is okay...but he takes everything *very*literally as well. If his character gets mad when he's fighting, it MUST take a level in barbarian to explain it. If it is very religious, it has to have a dip in a divine spellcasting class of some sort. And so forth. Everyone else has tried to explain that not everything has to be taken literally and either he doesn't want to hear it or it flies over his head...not sure which.

In addition, fluff has to be taken literally and if something doesn't fit his idea for a character, he has to find another class that fits better. Trying to explain to him my concept for a totally refluffed rogue that I wanted to play was *fun*.

[Godskook]

Me: I would never take Weapon Focus as a feat unless it was a prereq for a class I wanted to be in or if I had somehow completely run out of feats and was playing a fighter to level 20.

Friend: Why? Weapon Focus is a solid feat. Any melee fighter should take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.

Me: I completely disagree. I think both of those feats are subpar in comparison to any other feat you could take to accomplish a goal within a character build.

Friend: Fair enough, but I think that’s mostly because you’re a flavor guy and we’re talking about numbers.

…

::headdesk::

I feel your pain. I do. Wow.

[AtwasAwamps]

I feel your pain. I do. Wow.

You weren't there for the 20 minutes of me carefully explaining my point.

It made me realize I am a bit too...into...systems when I started detailing opportunity costs of taking that particular chain of feats and so on and so forth...

[TaintedLight]

I have a friend who is very fluff-centric, which is okay...but he takes everything *very*literally as well. If his character gets mad when he's fighting, it MUST take a level in barbarian to explain it. If it is very religious, it has to have a dip in a divine spellcasting class of some sort. And so forth. Everyone else has tried to explain that not everything has to be taken literally and either he doesn't want to hear it or it flies over his head...not sure which.

In addition, fluff has to be taken literally and if something doesn't fit his idea for a character, he has to find another class that fits better. Trying to explain to him my concept for a totally refluffed rogue that I wanted to play was *fun*.

Good lord, do you and I know the same guy here?

One of the guys in my group is playing a knight (that is, a warrior of noble lineage) and has levels in knight (the class). We cannot convince him how subpar that is to a fighter with well selected feats. To be fair, he is building this for a 30th level game where the casters (Fochluchan Lyrist and Wiz/Sorc/UltMag) have agreed to consciously pull their punches. The knight frankly sucks from 1-20 and it doesn't really get better from there. He can't get past the idea that he has to have knight levels to be a knight. A fighter chassis is not a knight, says he. Just a fighter.

It's Miko Syndrome, I'm telling you...

[Lord Vukodlak]

Make sure to point out the fact that Weapon Finesse is effectively Weapon Focus on crack. Even with the Elite Array, Weapon Finesse is twice the feat Weapon Focus is.

Your kidding me right?
Weapon finesse adds your dexterity INSTEAD of strength to your attack rolls not on top of it. If your strength is equal to or higher then your dexterity then the feat does nothing.

[TaintedLight]

Unless your strength is higher then your dexterity then the feat does nothing.
Weapon finesse adds your dexterity INSTEAD of strength not on top of.

Also, sadly no power attack goodness with light weapons.

[AtwasAwamps]

Good lord, do you and I know the same guy here?

One of the guys in my group is playing a knight (that is, a warrior of noble lineage) and has levels in knight (the class). We cannot convince him how subpar that is to a fighter with well selected feats. To be fair, he is building this for a 30th level game where the casters (Fochluchan Lyrist and Wiz/Sorc/UltMag) have agreed to consciously pull their punches. The knight frankly sucks from 1-20 and it doesn't really get better from there. He can't get past the idea that he has to have knight levels to be a knight. A fighter chassis is not a knight, says he. Just a fighter.

It's Miko Syndrome, I'm telling you...

A knight can frankly be quite a strong character archetype. It takes work to bring it out, though. I'd place it equal to a fighter (which the tier system just about does). And honestly, it's a FUN class. Loyal Beyond Death...what better way is there to be a badass in full plate?

[lsfreak]

It's Miko Syndrome, I'm telling you...

Actually, Miko did it right - class does not determine archetype. Rather, it's not understanding what Miko meant that's the problem.

I know someone who did the same. I suggested they plan a psion who came from a Hindu/Buddhist-like monastery to explain the special powers (via meditation/enlightenment). He then proceeded to take levels in monk, since obviously anyone who comes from a monastery has levels in monk.

I often run into this problem trying to explain optimization as (potentially) a betterment of roleplaying rather than an adversary of roleplaying. Some people just don't get it.

[TaintedLight]

Actually, Miko did it right - class does not determine archetype. Rather, it's not understanding what Miko meant that's the problem.

I know someone who did the same. I suggested they plan a psion who came from a Hindu/Buddhist-like monastery to explain the special powers (via meditation/enlightenment). He then proceeded to take levels in monk, since obviously anyone who comes from a monastery has levels in monk.

I often run into this problem trying to explain optimization as (potentially) a betterment of roleplaying rather than an adversary of roleplaying. Some people just don't get it.

You are correct. I should have called it Reverse Miko Syndrome or something more like that.

And AtwasAwamps, I recognize that knights can do some cool things and wholeheartedly agree that Loyal Beyond Death is awesome and very powerful. The problem is that like 75% at least of the enemies a 30th level character faces are immune to his mind-affecting stuff or have will saves good enough to ignore them. The worst part of it is that he just kept taking junk feats like improved critical. And Great Strength 3 times...

[AtwasAwamps]

You are correct. I should have called it Reverse Miko Syndrome or something more like that.

And AtwasAwamps, I recognize that knights can do some cool things and wholeheartedly agree that Loyal Beyond Death is awesome and very powerful. The problem is that like 75% at least of the enemies a 30th level character faces are immune to his mind-affecting stuff or have will saves good enough to ignore them. The worst part of it is that he just kept taking junk feats like improved critical. And Great Strength 3 times...

Oh right. Sorry. I don't take crazy epic stuff into account because its...umm...crazy.

[Godskook]

Also, sadly no power attack goodness with light weapons.

Unarmed Strikes and Spiked Chains are both finesse-able. What other weapon would a power-attack + weapon finesse player wield????

[TaintedLight]

Oh right. Sorry. I don't take crazy epic stuff into account because its...umm...crazy.

Yeah... Not sure why, but our DM agrees that epic is ridiculous yet at the same time likes running epic games a lot. Meh, who doesn't like the opportunity to crush worlds from time to time?

My guy in that campaign is actually pretty silly. Casts as a 20th level wizard and 20th level sorcerer, taking only a total hit to CL of -2. I've already promised the DM I won't Quickened Twinned Intensified Split Admixtured Polar Ray all of his deities, though. And before anyone mentions it, I hate epic spells with a passion. I will NEVER create a character who uses them :p.

[TaintedLight]

Unarmed Strikes and Spiked Chains are both finesse-able. What other weapon would a power-attack + weapon finesse player wield????

The issue I see with this is that Weapon Focus is applicable to literally anything you can use as a weapon. Pointy Stick, Table, Longsword, Cheese Wedge...

This combo works for two weapons, which is too narrow to be an option for a wide range of character builds and concepts. Also, personally I have problems with the spiked chain, but that's another discussion.

[AtwasAwamps]

The issue I see with this is that Weapon Focus is applicable to literally anything you can use as a weapon. Pointy Stick, Table, Longsword, Cheese Wedge...

This combo works for two weapons, which is too narrow to be an option for a wide range of character builds and concepts. Also, personally I have problems with the spiked chain, but that's another discussion.

I'm going to start taking ridiculous weapon focus feats. Or play a warblade who starts out with Weapon Focus: Ham Sandwich and consistently switches back and forth.

[TaintedLight]

I'm going to start taking ridiculous weapon focus feats. Or play a warblade who starts out with Weapon Focus: Ham Sandwich and consistently switches back and forth.

I actually made a comment very much along those lines in a thread where I was asking for some help with a warblade NPC. I hadn't really let the crazy awesomeness of warblades sink in yet when that realization hit .

[Mushroom Ninja]

Unarmed Strikes and Spiked Chains are both finesse-able. What other weapon would a power-attack + weapon finesse player wield????

Elven Courtblade.

[BRC]

Elven Courtblade.

I once built a Swashbuckler(Well, Swashbuckler 3/fighter 2) for a new player who used Power Attack+Weapon Finesse+Leap Attack+Elven Courtblade to great effect.

Mind you, she rolled really well for her stats (Well, I rolled for her, and the dice came out really high). but it still turned out very well.

[Mushroom Ninja]

I once built a Swashbuckler(Well, Swashbuckler 3/fighter 2) for a new player who used Power Attack+Weapon Finesse+Leap Attack+Elven Courtblade to great effect.

Now that's how you buckle the swash. For bonus points, add battle jump.

[John Campbell]

One of the guys in my group is playing a knight (that is, a warrior of noble lineage) and has levels in knight (the class). We cannot convince him how subpar that is to a fighter with well selected feats.

Up through Knight 4 or 5, I wouldn't call it subpar at all. I'll trade a reduced selection of bonus feats for making my threatened area difficult terrain (combine with Mage Slayer for bonus fun!), the ability to wear mithril full plate without speed reduction, and some minor bonuses including a bigger hit die and a good Will progression any day. Especially if the character concept is a chivalrous type who'd pretty much be following the code of conduct anyway.

Admittedly, there isn't much reason to stay in it after 5th level.

It's Miko Syndrome, I'm telling you...

Samurai would have made the point better. That class sucks beginning to end.

[AtwasAwamps]

I actually made a comment very much along those lines in a thread where I was asking for some help with a warblade NPC. I hadn't really let the crazy awesomeness of warblades sink in yet when that realization hit .

I think my favorite part is imagining this guy practicing with different types of food in the morning. For an hour.

"Why is Sochiro beating that training dummy with a warm croissant?"
"Because HE'S AWESOME."

[BRC]

Now that's how you buckle the swash. For bonus points, add battle jump.

What book is Battle Jump in

And for the record, this character had 16 str, 18 dex, and 14 int.


Also, Knights can be very good characters proved your party isn't playing one of those games where AC and hit points have become irrelevant. Knights can draw fire from the squishies and take quite a beating.

As, what's the crit range on a pickle?

[AtwasAwamps]

As, what's the crit range on a pickle?

18-20/x2, but don't forget you have to get past their Dill Resistance.

[Jayngfet]

In my entire time as a play by post DM and player I can remember ...maybe half a dozen people who were able to read every post and respond accordingly. Half of THOSE needed prompting. My current group ignored an explosion and a sonic boom in favor of talking about the weather. Both of these events took three posts, and had NPC's actually pay attention to it instead of the conversation. When NPC's pointed out the damage left by it they simply asked "how do you know local geography so well?".