[4e] What if you couldn't forget powers?

[Faleldir]

Maybe it's just me, but when I try to build a character, I always get stuck about halfway through Paragon because I just know I'm going to regret replacing a power. Many low-level powers have situational uses and unique side-effects that get better with Paragon feats, but high-level optimization seems to focus exclusively on getting more damage dice.

What would happen if you weren't forced to choose?
1: Anything (except normal retraining, of course) that permanently replaces a power just gives you a new power. Anything that lets you switch powers after resting is unaffected.
2: To compensate, you can't use more than X encounter powers per encounter and Y daily powers per day, including utility, racial and item powers.
3: If you use the same power multiple times, it only counts as one.

Would that rule destroy the game's balance as catastrophically as metamagic reducers in 3.5?

[Sir Homeslice]

2: To compensate, you can't use more than X encounter powers per encounter and Y daily powers per day, including utility, racial and item powers.

Thus making utility, item, and racial encounter/daily powers nearly completely useless.

3: If you use the same power multiple times, it only counts as one.

????

Make this more clearer, are you saying that you can use a single encounter power as an at-will?

[1of3]

Personally, I'd might just allow to add another damage die to a power, if the player chooses to keep it. That's how the powers in the last Avenger article work.

[DiscipleofBob]

Thus making utility, item, and racial encounter/daily powers nearly completely useless.

????

Make this more clearer, are you saying that you can use a single encounter power as an at-will?

I don't personally mind this idea, but the above poster has a point. If you say this rule only applies to the encounter attack powers and daily attack powers you get from leveling, and that utilities/items/racials/etc. don't apply to this rule, that sounds like it could be reasonable.

[Faleldir]

Make this more clearer, are you saying that you can use a single encounter power as an at-will?

No, the normal limits still apply. You just can't use ALL of them in the same encounter.
Powers with the Reliable keyword: If you don't hit, you expend one encounter/daily power slot, but you can keep trying without additional slots.
Powers like Oath Of Enmity, or recovered by other powers like Fighter's Recovery: If you use the power again, it doesn't cost a slot.

If you say this rule only applies to the encounter attack powers and daily attack powers you get from leveling, and that utilities/items/racials/etc. don't apply to this rule, that sounds like it could be reasonable.

That was actually my first idea, but I was afraid it would be too complicated.

[Yakk]

The change makes utility and racial powers significantly less important.

Utility daily powers are roughly as strong as a encounter attack power, in terms of combat usefulness. Racial powers are also weaker than encounter attack powers.

It would be less damaging to game balance to simply do away with retraining than to tack that extra rule on (ie, at level 13, you have a level 13, 7, 3 and level 1 encounter power).

You could even push things up a tad more, and make at-wills boost from 1[W] at level 1, to 2[W] at level 11 and 3[W] at level 21 (this causes problems with psionic powers, but still...), which would make at-wills compare well with level 1 encounter powers by level 11.

You'd have to compensate for this by throwing more and/or tougher opponents at the party. But I think the resulting game would be playable -- the DM would just have to do lots of manual encounter balancing. There would be a significant over-valuation of non-standard action attacks, and the 2[W] upgrade would make twin strike even better than it already is (and similar multi-tap powers).

[Faleldir]

Okay, you're right. Now the limit only applies to level 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 13, 15, 17, 19, 23, 25, 27 and 29 powers. You get 3 of each type. This house rule is otherwise unchanged.

[Delcan]

Would it destroy game balance? Short answer: yes. Long answer (and stealing a joke): yeeeeeeeeeeee...

First off, being able to use a single encounter power over and over again is VERY powerful, which is why this sort of thing shows up in Epic Destinies and daily powers. Imagine a paladin at epic level doing nothing but using Stunning Smite. Four times. And then using dailies, action points, etc. to keep recharging it.

Secondly, 90% of the time, low-level encounter powers get obsoleted by their more powerful equivalents. The effect might not be equivalent, but the intent of the power (or why you use the power) will be the same. If you hold on to a lower-level power, then it's because you favor the power's effect over the effects of later powers. It's not common, but it's justifiable. I'm currently playing a fighter who's been holding on to a level 5 daily, Agonizing Assault, because I think "daze and immobilize" is a much nastier thing to do to an enemy than any level 9 fighter dailies can do.

If you find yourself favoring lower-level powers, then the answer is not to change the system - the answer is to accept the trade-off. You're getting exactly the effect you want, with lower damage, instead of getting a higher-damage power that has a slightly different or less desirable effect.