[3.5] Full Attack with only a Standard Action?

[Jerthanis]

I don't really play a lot of 3.5 D&D anymore, but can anyone give me a comprehensive list of the things which become broken when you allow iterative attacks while using only a Standard action?

That is, assuming charges are special standard actions which grant a single attack, would anything break about the game if you let people Move->Full Attack?

[Eldariel]

Alright, here's the whole list:




There. Not so bad, really. In fact, I'd argue that's how it shoulda been all along. I guess someone could argue it breaks skirmish, but then a 1000 bears would beat him senseless in an attempt to beat some sense into him.

[Serenity]

Well, the only thing that strikes me is that it cuts both ways--the fighters will have exceedingly little protection against suffering full attacks from dragons and the like.

[Foryn Gilnith]

My first response to the title was Shadow Pounce + Standard-action teleportation.

[Rezby]

If you have Pounce, you can do a charge then a full attack. Easiest way to get pounce? take the Feral template, from Savage Species. Its a very broken template, in that its over-powered, for only a single +1 LA. Most DM's who know what they're doing don't allow it.

[AmberVael]

I don't really play a lot of 3.5 D&D anymore, but can anyone give me a comprehensive list of the things which become broken when you allow iterative attacks while using only a Standard action?

That is, assuming charges are special standard actions which grant a single attack, would anything break about the game if you let people Move->Full Attack?

Well, Cunning Surge becomes even scarier than it already was. I mean... with this variant, the Factotum could say "yeah, that's right, eat seven full attacks on the first turn of combat, while you're flat footed."

I'm sure there is far worse you could do, but still, that picture is a little frightening.

[Foryn Gilnith]

In my experience, taking a Barbarian level is notably more convenient than losing 4 Int.

I'd have to echo Serenity's comment: this would buff monsters too. It's relatively easy for a PC to pick up move/attack (barbarian level, or feral, or many other options). The same ability is less common on many monsters. Giving such an ability to those monsters may cause the CR system to go a bit more out of whack.

[Sinfire Titan]

If you have Pounce, you can do a charge then a full attack. Easiest way to get pounce? take the Feral template, from Savage Species. Its a very broken template, in that its over-powered, for only a single +1 LA. Most DM's who know what they're doing don't allow it.

Barbarian 1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Feral. Why lose the BAB and HD when you can also get a better Fort save (and an extra attack with Whirling Frenzy!).



One of my House Rules is that Weapon Mastery turns the Attack Action into an Immediate action, and Weapon Supremacy turns the Full Attack action into a Move action. Makes Fighter 18 slightly more interesting.

[AmberVael]

Barbarian 1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Feral. Why lose the BAB and HD when you can also get a better Fort save (and an extra attack with Whirling Frenzy!).

The +1 bonus of BAB is replaced by an increased strength. This does mean your iterative attack progression comes one level later, but that's not really a large issue.

The missing HP will be replaced pretty quickly (by around level 6, they'll be even). From then on out, the feral creature will probably do better, in fact.

They also get increased land speed not reliant on armor type (nice when you have pounce), natural armor, a bunch of special abilities (including fast healing).

It has a lot going for it. In some ways, yeah, the Barbarian may be better- it might be slightly safer to be the Barbarian and not feral... but Feral can kick some serious butt.

[Gametime]

Barbarian 1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Feral. Why lose the BAB and HD when you can also get a better Fort save (and an extra attack with Whirling Frenzy!).



One of my House Rules is that Weapon Mastery turns the Attack Action into an Immediate action, and Weapon Supremacy turns the Full Attack action into a Move action. Makes Fighter 18 slightly more interesting.

Boy, would I like to try Jack B. Quick with that houserule.

[Defiant]

Barbarian 1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Feral. Why lose the BAB and HD when you can also get a better Fort save (and an extra attack with Whirling Frenzy!).



One of my House Rules is that Weapon Mastery turns the Attack Action into an Immediate action, and Weapon Supremacy turns the Full Attack action into a Move action. Makes Fighter 18 slightly more interesting.

Barbarian 1 does not give pounce

[Eldariel]

Barbarian 1 does not give pounce

The irony...

EDIT: Oh yeah, contents? Feral abilities are actually based off your racial HD, so PCs are practically never getting Pounce off it. Barbarian 1, on the other hand, gives just about every PC just that.

[AmberVael]

Barbarian 1 does not give pounce

There's a variant that does. Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion (page 46).

Edit: And it never specifies "racial" hit dice in the feral template anywhere. Just hit dice.

[BenTheJester]

Alright, here's the whole list:

{Scrubbed}

On top of my head, Belt of Battle does this

I think there are some boots who let you move as a swift action too

Swiftblade gets the 3.0 haste at a point too(meaning you can full attack then take either a move or standard action)

[TheCountAlucard]

Only thing about taking a level of Barbarian is that you can't then buy off that level of Barbarian.

[lsfreak]

{Scrubbed}

I'm pretty sure Eldariel isn't one to do that kind of thing in a hostile sort of way. He was illustrating his point, not being condescending.

Also: I agree. My preference is allowing the 20/15/10/5 routine to work as a standard action, and a 20/15/15/15 as a full-round action. Pounce now lets you make a standard attack at the end of a charge, rather than the full-round version.

[Foryn Gilnith]

would anything break about the game if you let people Move->Full Attack?

Alright, here's the whole list:
(blanktext)

...

{Scrubbed}

Eldariel meant that nothing would break about the game. He did not mean that there were no ways to obtain standard-action full-attacks. And even if he was talking about methods to obtain standard-action full-attacks, how was his post in any way reminiscent of a jerk?

[Superglucose]

{scrubbed}

I haven't decided whether you're being sarcastic or not. Mostly because I and anyone who's seen Eladriel post knows that he's making a joke out of it and fairly well qualified to make such an assertion. Finding humor doesn't make one a jerk, really, so I have to wonder what you're trying to say?

In any case, I agree with Eladriel. It seems to just make sense to allow iteratives on a standard action attack.

[faceroll]

If you have Pounce, you can do a charge then a full attack. Easiest way to get pounce? take the Feral template, from Savage Species. Its a very broken template, in that its over-powered, for only a single +1 LA. Most DM's who know what they're doing don't allow it.

You only get pounce if you have 4 or more racial hitdice, though.

[AmberVael]

Yeah, just to get back on topic, I have always thought this variant made sense. There are very few things which might be a little overpowered by it- frankly, you're still having to watch the Wizard's spells more than you are the fighter's attacks.

^: Again, it never specifies racial hit dice.

[Eldariel]

Edit: And it never specifies "racial" hit dice in the feral template anywhere. Just hit dice.

"It gains special abilities indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice..."

You can certainly read it in another way, but it seems to me like that excludes class-based HD.

{Scrubbed}

As other said, I was talking (or rather, not talking) about standard action full attacks breaking the game, since that's his question. And yes, there are things that allow moving and full attacking. I don't see a question to that effect in the OP though.

EDIT: Thanks to all the ninjas.

[BenTheJester]

"It gains special abilities indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice..."

You can certainly read it in another way, but it seems to me like that excludes class-based HD.



As other said, I was talking (or rather, not talking) about standard action full attacks breaking the game, since that's his question. And yes, there are things that allow moving and full attacking. I don't see a question to that effect in the OP though.

EDIT: Thanks to all the ninjas.

I apologize, I misunderstood.

[AmberVael]

"It gains special abilities indicated in the row corresponding to its monster Hit Dice..."

You can certainly read it in another way, but it seems to me like that excludes class-based HD.

That's an interesting quote, and that doesn't appear to line up with Savage Species. I'm looking at my copy at this moment...

Oh hey, maybe it's because I'm looking at Special Qualities and not special attacks. Huh, that's kind of odd, really.

It seems pretty weird that they say monster hit dice though. I mean, what they intend is pretty obvious, but that's not wording I'm familiar with. Do they use that anywhere else?

It also seems odd that they wouldn't specify "monster hit dice" for the same HD based special qualities.

I think I'm just going to write it off as a shoddy job like I normally do.

[Irreverent Fool]

Lion-Totem Barbarian 1 gives rage 1/day, which is nice as well.

While feral does make mention of 'monster hit dice', I don't believe the term is defined. The could have saved us all by using 'racial hit dice or hit dice gained through advancement in the monster classes presented in this book', but they didn't. RAI seems to be that a feral creature only gains those abilities based on RHD which makes it a significantly weaker template for players and thus justifying its low +LA (though I still wouldn't want to run into a feral dragon) (Can't be added to a dragon. Not going to stop me as a DM though )

Unless the term 'monster hit dice' is defined somewhere, I'm going to go out on a limb and say by RAW, class hit dice count.

Back on topic: I like the idea of the weapon supremacy chain reducing the action for attacks. Melee should get some nice things.

As for breaking the game: I don't think it will. CR will need to be adjusted slightly though.

Edit: Sort-of ninja'd

obnoxious
sig

[Curmudgeon]

It seems pretty weird that they say monster hit dice though. I mean, what they intend is pretty obvious, but that's not wording I'm familiar with. Do they use that anywhere else?

Actually Savage Species use the term "monster hit dice" a lot -- but they never exactly define it. The closest they come is on page 11:

Because monsters are characters too, the base creature of a monster character gains skill points and feats in much the same way a standard-race character does.

I'm guessing "base creature HD" means the same as racial HD.

It also seems odd that they wouldn't specify "monster hit dice" for the same HD based special qualities.

As written Feral will only give Pounce with your monster racial HD, but you'll get darkvision and fast healing from total HD.

[krossbow]

the only issue that i see is that it means that charging damage might actually become more ridiculous (i understand that it lets melee keep up somewhat in an unfair world; i just think it attacks a symptom and leaves the problem alone)

[Eldariel]

the only issue that i see is that it means that charging damage might actually become more ridiculous (i understand that it lets melee keep up somewhat in an unfair world; i just think it attacks a symptom and leaves the problem alone)

As long as you limit charge multipliers on the first attack on charge, it's really all fine. Pounce + Shock Trooper + Leap Attack or Spirited Charge (along with Valorous, Headlong Charge and such but let's face it, those shouldn't exist) outpaces all other sources of damage if, and only if, you get to use all the bonuses on the iteratives too. Otherwise it merely makes charging a viable alternative with big returns and big costs.

[lsfreak]

the only issue that i see is that it means that charging damage might actually become more ridiculous (i understand that it lets melee keep up somewhat in an unfair world; i just think it attacks a symptom and leaves the problem alone)

Charging is based completely around pounce... making a full attack a standard action changes nothing, really. If anything, it might make it less powerful, because a) you no longer have to charge->pounce to get decent damage, and b) everyone's not dipping barbarian and getting rage in order to get pounce.

[krossbow]

Charging is based completely around pounce... making a full attack a standard action changes nothing, really. If anything, it might make it less powerful, because a) you no longer have to charge->pounce to get decent damage, and b) everyone's not dipping barbarian and getting rage in order to get pounce.

if this sounds anti-melee, stop me, its just that i'm against uber-charging in general. Its too much of a one trick pony. The fact that this more or less makes everyone an ubercharger right out of the box is my issue with it.

I'm all for helping melee, but i think that ubercharging is just too cheesy. there has to be other ways to fix the system.

[Ravens_cry]

This would really break my verisimilitude. Now, I might houserule a single iterative attack on standard actions per three iterative attacks on a full attack, therefore starting at 16th level for full BAB. But it makes no sense that after moving 20 feet you could make the same amount off attacks as you would if you stood still and attacked, doing the same amount of attack in less time.
Sorry, I don't like this idea.