(Core only) bard critique

[rockdeworld]

I'm interested in bards lately. I know that core vastly limits people's options, but I'm planning on joining a low-wealth campaign, and the party could use some glue (and on top of that, I wrote this). I tried to make a balanced character, since I don't want to be useless in combat, and on the other hand Inspire Courage cheese isn't available in core, so I can't make a combat beast. PEACH.

Human Bard 10
STR 10
DEX 13 + 2 Item = 15
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 16 + 2 Levels + 4 Item = 22

Skills:
Bluff 13, Concentration 13, Diplomacy 13, Gather Information 8, Knowledge (Dungeoneering 1, History 5, Local 1, Nobility 5, The Planes 1), Perform 13, Sense Motive 5, UMD 13

Feats:
1: Improved Initiative
H: Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Leadership or Extend Spell
9: Two-Weapon Fighting

Spells:
0th:
Prestidigitation
Detect Magic
Ghost Sound
Dancing Lights
Message
Open/Close
1st:
Charm Person
Grease
Silent Image
Feather Fall
2nd:
Alter Self
Glitterdust
Mirror Image
CMW or Heroism
3rd:
Haste
Glibness
Dispel Magic
CSW or Major Image
4rd:
Dimdoor
Dominate Person

Items: (49000 gp)
Cloak of Charisma +4 (16000)
Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4000)
Circlet of Persuasion (4500)
Wand of Magic Missile (9th) (6750)
~+3 Armor (5000)
~+2 Weapon (8000)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000)
Etc. (1750)


I can auto-friendly an indifferent person with diplomacy (+29), and succeed half the time when rushed. I figured with TWF I could dual-wield a Vicious +1 Rapier with a Wand of Magic Missile for 3 attacks (after Inspire courage +2, +10/+5/auto-hit Magic Missile, and assuming only the +10 attack and MM hit) for a total of 3d6+5d4+7 ~ 30 damage per turn.

Edit: I was wrong, wands use a standard action. TWFing Vicious short swords might work, but it'd be less efficient.

[Sophismata]

I figured with TWF I could dual-wield a Vicious +1 Rapier with a Wand of Magic Missile for 3 attacks (after Inspire courage +2, +10/+5/auto-hit Magic Missile, and assuming only the +10 attack and MM hit) for a total of 3d6+5d4+7 ~ 30 damage per turn.

Cool idea, but using a wand of magic missiles is a standard action. You may not ordinarily use a wand as part of a full attack sequence.

[Eldariel]

How exactly do you use Rapiers and Wand in the same round? I don't think that works for TWF as Wands aren't weapons. Either way, I'd probably pick up CCW as a 4th level spell, perhaps over Dominate. Dominate does precious little Charm+Diplomacy doesn't do (and the Charm-path does the same with 100% less repercussions).

Oh, at least 1 rank in K: Arc. You're still arcane caster; not having it would be just wrong. I'd probably also go for one rank in Spellcraft. You should also consider some Crafts; they're some of the better caster feats in Core. Spell Penetrations too. And as a spontaneous caster, you should consider Heighten Spell to increase your versatility a tad. While your saves are of course lower than real casters', you can still do a decent amount with level 4 slots.


Oh yea, Con-bonus items are hawt I hear. Especially for low-save caster with low HP and intent on meddling around in melee. Also, pick up Heward's Handy Haversack and probably Scroll of Heal or so. Few other Scrolls and maybe some cheaper Wand (Wand of Grease is nice, for example) could also be worthwhile. Craft Wondrous Items would release a lot of money.

[rockdeworld]

Nice notes - I forgot wands require a standard action to activate, and so can't be used as part of a full-attack.

[Pluto]

Bah. Internet ate my post.

Anyway, how do you feel about archery?
Bards aren't exactly built to survive a lot of blows and they aren't built with the same escape routes as the Wizard (flight and such). Archery will help you stay out of reach and use your Dex on attacks without Weapon Finesse. It also is one of the better methods of damage output at higher levels, when you can afford to stack non-numeric bow and arrow enhancements. Also, full attacks are easier to generate when you can stand still to make them.
This might require a slight rearrangement of feats.

If you want to stick with melee, you're going to need some Tumble.
Otherwise your skills look good if socializing is what you want to specialize in.

For some reason, I'm never able to use Extend spell except for out-of combat buffs (actually, I know the reason - it's the Full Round casting). Heroism is the only thing you have that fits the bill. I'd drop it.
Depending on how your campaigns work, Leadership might be replaceable with a high Diplomacy score. If it isn't, you should almost definitely take it.

Forget the Cure spells. They more or less lose their punch around ECL 4. If healing is a concern, buy a wand or two of CLW. I like the rest of your spell selection.

But overall, this looks good.

[Killer Angel]

Spells:
1st:
Charm Person
Grease
Silent Image
Feather Fall

Items: (49000 gp)
Cloak of Charisma +4 (16000)
Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4000)
Circlet of Persuasion (4500)
Wand of Magic Missile (9th) (6750)
~+3 Armor (5000)
~+2 Weapon (8000)
Ring of Protection +1 (2000)
Etc. (1750)

I know the value of the circlet, but... hat of disguise?
Or directly the spell, instead of feather fall?

Edit: yes, don't take cure spells.

[Quirp]

If you drop Heroism and the Cure spells you should consider Suggestion (to tell those full-plated guys: "Remove your armor (but not your clothes)!" Do you know how long that takes for heavy armors? SoL and so useful out of combat).
I don`t know the other members of your team, but you are not that useful against most undead, constructs and oozes. Perhaps you should try to find some way to kill those and not only GREASE, SILENT IMAGE, RUN AWAY. I think your social skills are OK, but have you checked with your DM how Diplomacy an Leadership function. In my opinion those two get often nerfed or banned.

[Pluto]

I don`t know the other members of your team, but you are not that useful against most undead, constructs and oozes.

He has Silent+Major Image. Undead and Constructs are not known for their intelligence.

He also has Dimension Door, Haste and IC/IG. Party taxi service and buffs can be just as useful as debilitating the monsters himself.

[onthetown]

Forget the Cure spells. They more or less lose their punch around ECL 4. If healing is a concern, buy a wand or two of CLW. I like the rest of your spell selection.

It's never a bad idea to have a couple of healing spells lying around, even if it's just two of the higher level ones. If your bard is trapped in a situation without a cleric, it's a good thing to have (especially if you have Quicken Spell, so you can heal yourself and attack, I believe... maybe that's just house rules, I don't know). Not to mention, items that give you healing can be stolen, "lost", or destroyed in-game or by a DM who wants to make something challenging.

Good build. I like the typical charismatic bard. As was pointed out, archery is a nice thing for a bard to have since you can go from attacking to casting spells without worrying about too many people attacking you.

[JeenLeen]

Two-weapon fighting is rather subpar, from what I've heard, and even with Weapon Finesse, your to-hit and bonus to damage will be very low relative to the actual fighter-types by level 10, so I would focus instead on making a character that is useful in combat through field control. If you want to contribute to fighting via melee, I would look into if there are any finessable reach weapons. I know the whip can do that, but unless your DM waves that it doesn't do lethal damage to things in armor, it won't be useful.
Whip on SRD: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#whip

A +1 adamantine weapon would probably be more useful (can dig through doors, stone, etc.) if nobody else has admantine, and that extra gold can go a long way.

Use of charm, etc., can get cause some enemies to temporarily defect or at least stop fighting you and your allies. If you DM allows Diplomacy to work without major nerfs, great for your character. If not, I'd recommend trading Skill Focus (Diplomacy) for something else.
If you can choose your cohort with Leadership, you could choose a fighter-type to help how much your character contributes to battle.

I second Eldariel's recommendations about skills and wands. I also recommend getting one or two wands of Cure Light Wounds and use those. If you party seems low on healing, then having a Cure spell could be handy, but out-of-combat healing via wands is probably more useful by level 10.

I usually don't use any Item Creation feats since they cost xp, but if you plan to specialize in UMD and wands, Craft Wand could be rather useful. Especially since another caster can supply the spell needed for crafting the wand, so the party cleric or wizard (or one you hire) could cast Magic Missle or a Cure spell into the wand as you craft it. EDIT: I just read through the crafting feats in SRD and did not see mention of another caster supplying the spell, but I'm sure I read it somewhere.

[rockdeworld]

I like swords atm. Taking all of your suggestions into account, I've slimmed down my balanced bard as so:

Spoiler

Show

STR 10
DEX 13 + 2 Item = 15
CON 14 + 2 Item = 16
INT 10
WIS 8
CHA 16 + 2 Levels + 4 Item = 22

Skills:
Bluff 5, Concentration 13, Diplomacy 13, Gather Information 9, Knowledge (Arcana 1, Dungeoneering 1, Local 1, Nature 1, Nobility 5, Religion 1,The Planes 1), Perform 13, Sense Motive 5, Tumble 9, UMD 13

Feats:
1: Improved Initiative
H: Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
3: Weapon Finesse
6: Leadership
9: Craft Wand

Spells:
0:
Prestidigitation
Detect Magic
Ghost Sound
Dancing Lights
Message
Open/Close
1:
Charm Person
Grease
Silent Image
Feather Fall
2:
Alter Self
Glitterdust
Mirror Image
Suggestion
3:
Haste
Glibness
Dispel Magic
Major Image
4:
Dimdoor
Cure Critical Wounds

Items: (49000 gp)
Cloak of Charisma +4 (16000)
Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4000)
Amulet of Health +2 (4000)
Circlet of Persuasion (4500)
+2 Mithral Shirt (5000)
+1 Vicious Rapier (8320)
Other - put into wands, or eliminated due to low wealth (7180)

In his spare time, he makes wands of useful spells (i.e. the ones he has).

[Eldariel]

I like swords

Welcome to Corneria.

[vrellum]

You could use a whip (automatic profiency) and trip people. Or maybe disarm them (up to you).

[onthetown]

I like swords

How about sword-chucks?

[Ecalsneerg]

In a low-optimisation game (in core-only, that amounts to essentially the Wizard and Druid pulling punches), Bards actually make decent Dragon Disciple gishes.

[Tyger]

Just one quick observation. Why take the Suggestion spell? I mean, yes, its a great spell, but you can use the Suggestion bardic music ability, so you are really doubling up there. Not to mention, with a bit of optimization, you can get the DC on the Suggestion song much, much higher than you can with the spell.

Yes, you have to Fascinate first, but that's not too hard to do. Hell, by the time you are using Suggestion song, your Fascinate DC should be very hard for CR appropriate creatues, even those with decent Will saves.

Just my two cents.

[El Dorado]

Just one quick observation. Why take the Suggestion spell? I mean, yes, its a great spell, but you can use the Suggestion bardic music ability, so you are really doubling up there. Not to mention, with a bit of optimization, you can get the DC on the Suggestion song much, much higher than you can with the spell.

Yes, you have to Fascinate first, but that's not too hard to do. Hell, by the time you are using Suggestion song, your Fascinate DC should be very hard for CR appropriate creatues, even those with decent Will saves.

Just my two cents.

The spell is useful in combat; the class ability, less so.

[ericgrau]

Because it takes another round. Not so hot if you get ambushed. The number of targets is also fairly limited, and if you don't fascinate all your opponents it'll be trouble. But yeah, nice otherwise.

Your skills, spells and +X gear are pretty good, but I'd add about a bajillion scrolls for you to UMD. Stick to utility things like comprehend languages. As for wands get any utility spell you'd want to spam like invisibility. Avoid combat spells on scrolls and wands as they will be weak. Magic missile will hardly do any damage. If you want a little more AC you can get an amulet of natural armor +1 and maybe a dusty rose prism ioun stone. I'd get a 3000gp lesser rod of extend spell rather than the feat, as all of your spells worth extending are 3rd level or lower.

For that matter your feats seem pretty meh. The 3 combat feats are pretty lousy on a mid BAB bard with no strength bonus to damage. I'd dump your magic weapon too, getting a masterwork or +1. Skill focus is pretty meh unless your campaign focuses heavily on non-combat situations or allows diplomancer cheese. If the DM'ed picked core, such cheese is doubtful. Leadership depends what you do with it. I'd dump all of those feats or maybe all except leadership. You could consider spell focus since you have so many spells with saves. The conjuration spells aren't bad even if a couple baddies pass their saves. The enchantment spells OTOH will benefit much more, but depending on how many mindless creatures you fight you might use them less often. Magic item crafting is another excellent option for the bard, b/c unlike your save spells you are just as powerful as a sorcerer at crafting. I'd avoid craft wand, brew potion and scribe scroll though b/c you don't have many spells to choose from and these things are cheap so you won't save much money. Plus one of the best things about buying them is getting utility spells you don't have. If you don't mind making strength your 2nd stat then a couple feats to become a whip tripper could also work. Or even with strength as your 3rd stat and no feats, it doesn't hurt to carry a whip as a backup option. You are proficient. In a campaign with a lot of weapon wielding creatures, you could try to disarm too. Or even a weapon finesse whip disarmer if you don't mind dumping your ability to trip.

I'd avoid any cure spells unless you're the party's only healer. At most I'd get a wand of cure light wounds, or if you are the only healer then go for broke and get a 4th level cure spell. The power of a cure is very level dependant so you don't want to waste combat rounds on anything less than the best... another reason to leave it to the cleric if you can. Outside of combat the wand of CLW will be your best option at only 15 gp per charge.