scrolls suck for learning new spells EDIT: +Spell trade protocols +roleplay info

[taltamir]

I always see people refer to "buying scrolls" in order to learn new spells as a wizard. I don't know why people insist on saying scrolls are a good way to acquire spells, they are the absolute WORST way to acquire new spells.

The best way is of course collegiate.

The second best way is to get access to someone's spellbook for free... this is either a quest reward, the result of joining a guild, looting it off a corpse of an enemy wizard, or stealing it from a still living enemy wizard or just trading spell X for spell Y (you let me copy from your book, I will let you copy from mine). Cost? 100gp per spell level. nothing with blessed book. If the DM is nazi about it then have multiple PCs who are wizards, each gets 4 different spells on level up and they copy from each other.

the third best way is to pay a wizard for the service of copying from his spellbook. Cost is 50gp per spell level for service +100 GP per spell level to scribe (waived by blessed book)

the fourth and absolutely worst way is to use scrolls, a consumable resource worth money and XP.
cost is (for a minimum CL scroll with no expensive material component or XP component) 25*SL*(SL*2-1) + 100 SL.
Where SL = Spell level.
The +100 is waived if you have blessed book.
SL*2-1 = Caster level.

So scribing a 9th level spell costs the following with each method:
1. free
2. 900gp, or free with blessed book.
3. 1350gp, or 450gp with blessed book.
4. 4725gp, or 3825gp with blessed book.

As you can clearly see, scrolls absolutely suck for learning new spells.
With blessed book you can actually make money. Every level you learn new spells, put them in a mundane spellbook. Then COPY Those into your blessed book (for free), then sell your mundane spellbook for 50gp per page. (of course, you can just keep on buying blessed books, filling them up, and selling them for massive profit).

EX. your collegiate wizard became level 10, he gains 4 spells of SL5 for free... he puts them in a blank new book which costs 15gp. He copies those spells into his blessed book for free... he then sells the mundane book for 5x4x50 = 1000gp. making a neat 985gp profit.

EDIT:
for spell trade protocols see post 49: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...4&postcount=49

For roleplay info see post 58: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=58

[Oslecamo]

The best way is of course collegiate.

Good, but scrolls are still best as collegiate gives you two spells per level, but scrolls have no cap.

The second best way is to get access to someone's spellbook for free... this is either a quest reward, the result of joining a guild, looting it off a corpse of an enemy wizard, or stealing it from a still living enemy wizard or just trading spell X for spell Y (you let me copy from your book, I will let you copy from mine). Cost? 100gp per spell level. nothing with blessed book.

Assuming that you find NPC wizards. Wich isn't very likely when the campaign is in the orc wastelands or something like that. And said NPC wizards walk around with their spellbooks in their pockets instead of extradimensional safe spaces.

Like one of my DMs once said, if you were a wizard and a random stranger asked to borrow your super valuable spellbook for a measly 100GP, would you allow him? Not unless you've got a pretty solid trust relation with said wizard.

EX. your collegiate wizard became level 10, he gains 4 spells of SL5 for free... he puts them in a blank new book which costs 15gp. He copies those spells into his blessed book for free... he then sells the mundane book for 5x4x50 = 1000gp. making a neat 985gp profit.

A nice trick, but it demands a blessed spellbook, wich is bloody expensive, and then the profit isn't that much for 10th level. One extra wand of cure light wounds and some spare change. Not very hot.

Plus, scrolls don't cost you feats. Collegiate wizard could have been used for some much more valuable metamagic or item creation feat.

[taltamir]

Assuming that you find NPC wizards. Wich isn't very likely when the campaign is in the orc wastelands or something like that. And said NPC wizards walk around with their spellbooks in their pockets instead of extradimensional safe spaces.

You are a wizard... finding and reaching them isn't a problem... do you know the speed on a phantom steed? not to mention teleport later on.

Like one of my DMs once said, if you were a wizard and a random stranger asked to borrow your super valuable spellbook for a measly 100GP, would you allow him? Not unless you've got a pretty solid trust relation with said wizard.

Actually, you need to study it in his presence so that he can explain the spell to you. And unless he is showing you how, you would trigger the traps on the book.
it especially helps if said random stranger is doing an X for Y exchange (aka, you have your own spellbook out as well).
besides, copying spellbooks costs half price and time, so you can make an extra especially for trades (which isn't consumed in the process).

but yes all of the above are not ideal... that is why you do not trade spells with RANDOM STRANGERS.
A wizard should make some wizard friends. You aren't gonna get it off of every random stranger.

A nice trick, but it demands a blessed spellbook, wich is bloody expensive, and then the profit isn't that much for 10th level. One extra wand of cure light wounds and some spare change. Not very hot.

It pays for itself very rapidly... this trick isn't the only way to make money off of a blessed book.

Plus, scrolls don't cost you feats. Collegiate wizard could have been used for some much more valuable metamagic or item creation feat.

Collegiate gives you about 15% more money then your WBL at EVERY level. it starts out really high, then goes down until at its worse it is 12% over it at around level 10, and then it goes back up again. +15% WBL (at no XP cost) is a GREAT choice for a feat.

[Roderick_BR]

No one said it was "the best" as in cost, but in availability. Way easier to find a magemart (tm) with scrolls to sell, than finding wizards with spare time and willing to teach you stuff.

Find scrolls or spell books as treasure is essentially the same thing.

Collegiate can be used when available. Maybe such thing just doesn't exists in the campaign world? Or requires huge fees to enter (that you'd spend on scrolss anyway), or very high levels, which makes scrolls more reliable at low levels.

Or........ the DM restricts what books you can have, so you can only learn spells with core mechanics? Like, finding spellbooks and scrolls. Or buying them.

[Oslecamo]

You are a wizard... finding and reaching them isn't a problem... do you know the speed on a phantom steed? not to mention teleport later on.

If I'm a mid level wizard, I would make sure to cover my tracks as best as possible to prevent rivals from scry and killing me. A wizard who lets himself be found won't have very usefull spells on his spellbook.

It pays for itself very rapidly... this trick isn't the only way to make money off of a blessed book.


Collegiate gives you about 15% more money then your WBL at EVERY level. it starts out really high, then goes down until at its worse it is 12% over it at around level 10, and then it goes back up again. +15% WBL (at no XP cost) is a GREAT choice for a feat.

And there's that eberron feat that reduces crafting cost by 25%. That's even more WBL for a feat if you're so worried about money.

[taltamir]

No one said it was "the best" as in cost, but in availability. Way easier to find a magemart (tm) with scrolls to sell, than finding wizards with spare time and willing to teach you stuff.

This is simply not true unless done so by DM fiat.
Scrolls cost GP and XP to create, and are only useful for very specific spells (where min CL and min DC is irrelevant)

Find scrolls or spell books as treasure is essentially the same thing.

Spellbooks are not consumed when scribed, and can be sold after the fact. Scrolls are destroyed when scribed from.

Collegiate can be used when available. Maybe such thing just doesn't exists in the campaign world? Or requires huge fees to enter (that you'd spend on scrolss anyway), or very high levels, which makes scrolls more reliable at low levels.

Collegiate is ONLY available at level 1. but your DM is free to ban it or modify it, but to say it is only for "very high levels" makes no sense.

Or........ the DM restricts what books you can have, so you can only learn spells with core mechanics? Like, finding spellbooks and scrolls. Or buying them.

even better reason to take collegiate.

Basically, travel to the largest city in the world, or the most magically inclined one at least... you will fine whole libraries of spells, and a bunch of wizards willing to sell spells to you from a spellbook.

here is a little factoid. The cost you pay someone for copying a spell from his book is equal to the cost that person will incur to make a second copy of said spell in a new book. So they can charge you AHEAD of time, use your money to scribe a second copy of that spell in a new book, and then let you use said book to copy it into your book.
if you do steal it they loose nothing.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Any spell, 100 gp:

Copy any 1st level spell in your book onto another page, which costs the 100 gp. Prepare Secret Page.

Go to an individual/organization which permits copying spells for a fee, typically 50 gp per spell level but their price is irrelevant. Study the desired spell, make the Spellcraft check, but don't copy it into your book. Pretend you failed the spellcraft check and could not understand the spell, in-character blame the poor quality of the copy you studied and refuse to pay their fee. Leave, cast Secret Page to turn that one-page 1st level spell into the spell you just finished studying.

[taltamir]

just don't get hit with dispell magic :P
funny thing, blessed book requires secret page to craft.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

just don't get hit with dispell magic :P

Dispel Magic would have to be targeted at the book itself to do anything. Arguably, that particular page would have to be specifically targeted, and if the book were shut the caster wouldn't even have line of effect.

[Petrocorus]

G
Assuming that you find NPC wizards. Wich isn't very likely when the campaign is in the orc wastelands or something like that. And said NPC wizards walk around with their spellbooks in their pockets instead of extradimensional safe spaces.

For the newbie that i am, what kind of extradimensional safe space? Portable hole?

[Volkov]

Dispel Magic would have to be targeted at the book itself to do anything. Arguably, that particular page would have to be specifically targeted, and if the book were shut the caster wouldn't even have line of effect.

Heaven help you if it's an adamantine horror(s) or else those spells on that spellbook are all going bye-bye.

[Harperfan7]

You are completely right OP, but the fact is its rarely that easy. If you can, do it, if not, stick to scrolls.

[Sinfire Titan]

For the newbie that i am, what kind of extradimensional safe space? Portable hole?

Enveloping Pit. Five times the hole that a Portable Hole claims to be.


A Portable Hole is actually a small (but deep) swimming pool without water.

[taltamir]

You are completely right OP, but the fact is its rarely that easy. If you can, do it, if not, stick to scrolls.

true, if you CAN'T find a spell in any other superior way, you might have to resort to scrolls... but it should be your last resort, not your choice.

[ericgrau]

That's the thing. Often you must get scrolls.

[erikun]

The best way to save money on scrolls: Choose your spells carefully, so that your 2/level cover basically whatever you'll need.

Yes, getting a spellbook is cheaper (per spell) than getting a scroll. This is mitigated by the fact that most of the spells in any one spellbook will not be useful to you. Buying a single scroll is a lot more efficient than waiting to find a spellbook that may have the spell you want, or trying to convince some random Wizard to allow copying spells with your lovely 0-ranks Diplomancy.

[Vizzerdrix]

If I'm a mid level wizard, I would make sure to cover my tracks as best as possible to prevent rivals from scry and killing me. A wizard who lets himself be found won't have very usefull spells on his spellbook.

If you're a mid level wizard, you'd best darn well not be leaving enemies behind you, just piles of ash.


Collegiate wizard has proven to be worth it to me every time I've had to run a wizard. Things like down time and scrolls and spellbook loot are unheard of, so getting those extra spells are a matter of life and death.

[Defiant]

I agree with the OP. I don't see why people are saying "best way of getting new spells is with scrolls".

[Oslecamo]

If you're a mid level wizard, you'd best darn well not be leaving enemies behind you, just piles of ash.

Nah, that burns trough my 6th level slots too fast. Dominating/charming/mindraping is much more cost effecient, and with a little luck any pursuers will be misdirected by my slaves friends to the cave of that angry epic red dragon.

[Vizzerdrix]

Nah, that burns trough my 6th level slots too fast. Dominating/charming/mindraping is much more cost effecient, and with a little luck any pursuers will be misdirected by my slaves friends to the cave of that angry epic red dragon.

And thus, you leave no enemies behind, just friends and piles of ash

[ericgrau]

I agree with the OP. I don't see why people are saying "best way of getting new spells is with scrolls".

I beg your pardon? A google search reveals that no one ever says that. Out of all the results just one person said something that might be interpreted that way and got shot down on the very next post. Whether he meant it as an affordable method I'll never know. I don't really see the point of this thread...

[Lord Vukodlak]

If you can find someone to buy arcane scrolls off of you can find probably find a wizard with that spell in his book. Why?

Because if your buying a scroll of xxx its probably from a wizard. First every wizard has scribe scroll its a bonus feat, A sorcerer only has the feat if he takes it. Which I would guess most don't there is little need to scribe scrolls if your a spontaneous caster.

Second, well a sorcerer can't cast say 3rd level spells until sixth level would that not mean the minimum CL for a sorcerer made fireball scroll is 6th instead of five?

If I want to buy a scroll of teleportation the most likely person to possess such and item or be capable of acquiring it is a wizard who knows the spell.

[Xan_Kriegor]

The reason that scrolls are the most commonly referred to way of getting new spells is this: they're consistently in most games. Yes, there are other ways to get spells (borrowing your friend's spellbook), but the availability of that option is entirely up to the DM and what he gives you, the Wizard. Your Wizard might have a ton of friends with spellbooks they'd be happy to share, or he might have no friends, and all other Wizards are so paranoid that if you so much as greet them they start casting spells at you. On the other hand, scrolls are (mostly) everywhere. Kill some [generic monster], and there's a chance you'll get a scroll as loot. Wanna head back to town after a hard day's adventuring? You can buy scrolls at Ye Olde Magic Shoppe. As an added bonus, there's a much higher chance of you getting the spell you want if you buy from a shop.

You say that scrolls cost XP (and GP) to scribe. Yes, that's true. However, it doesn't cost the Wizard that's scribing the scroll into his spellbook that XP. The XP cost has already been paid. For that reason, the XP cost is pretty much irrelevant.

I'm not saying that getting spells from scrolls is the best option, I'm just saying that it's consistently in most games, and is slightly easier on the DM than trying to figure out what extra spells he wants you to get from your friend Joe's spellbook. By all means, get Collegiate Wizard for more free spells and charm some Wizards (magically or otherwise) to borrow their books, but it's just less frequent in most games.

TL;DR: Scrolls are in most games, and less work for the DM. But yes, other methods are more cost effective.

[Oblivious]

DMs can and should limit you to scrolls (and spellbooks as loot) most of the time for balance reasons. Clearly copying from another wizard is less expensive, but it's equivalent to giving a fighter magic weapons and armor that don't count against his wealth by level.

Collegiate Wizard is an incredibly strong feat if you compare the price of scrolls to expected wealth.

[Sinfire Titan]

I am inclined to agree, but the problem is other methods of obtaining spells are rare. Here, take a look:

Recaster: 2 spells, both of which have some restrictions.

Wyrm Wizard: IIRC, it's one spell every other level. However, I believe I am mistaken on this. Either way, the class isn't worth taking for more than 2 levels.

Mage of the Arcane Order: Possibly the best option.

Captured Spellbook: Only obtainable through DM Fiat (as any Optimizer will tell you: You found the Wizard's Spellbook? How the hell did that happen?), even by RAW (Random Treasure never results in spellbooks being generated, other than one item from the DMG).

Scrolls: The most abundant way of adding spells. Also the most expensive barring independent research.


Scrolls just happen to be the most common item the DMG Random Treasure Charts will give you. No one likes using scrolls (save for the people who don't know how much of a trap they are), but sometimes you gotta deal with it.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Isn't there a cost listed somewhere for sharing spells with other wizards? I think I read somewhere that other wizards would typically charge a fee for transcribing spells from their spellbooks.

[Sinfire Titan]

Isn't there a cost listed somewhere for sharing spells with other wizards? I think I read somewhere that other wizards would typically charge a fee for transcribing spells from their spellbooks.

Typically, 50gp/spell level. However, that is an optional fee done only if the Wizard in question says so. Between PCs, I've seen them trade spells at no charge.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Isn't there a cost listed somewhere for sharing spells with other wizards? I think I read somewhere that other wizards would typically charge a fee for transcribing spells from their spellbooks.

Its been mentioned alot.

DMs can and should limit you to scrolls (and spellbooks as loot) most of the time for balance reasons. Clearly copying from another wizard is less expensive, but it's equivalent to giving a fighter magic weapons and armor that don't count against his wealth by level.

HOW is it equivalent? A fighter can only use magic weapons and armor to help himself directly.(it helps indirectly as he kills things easier).

But many wizard spells help the entire party or are utility based, every fighter wants the wizard to cast things like haste or heroism and teleport is always useful. And remember a wizard not only must pay for the scroll/fee but the 100gp per page. Until they acquire a blessed book for 12,500 gp

The point of playing a wizard instead of a sorcerer is the expanded spell versatility but limiting them to buying scrolls and whatever spells you happen to have the NPC wizards use is to limiting and makes absolutely no sense.

The fact that the cost to pay a wizard a fee for copying spells shows that method of learning spells is actually intended.

Typically, 50gp/spell level. However, that is an optional fee done only if the Wizard in question says so. Between PCs, I've seen them trade spells at no charge.

Every campaign I've ever been in that included a wizard at at least one scene where the PC wizard and an NPC wizard traded a few spells. Usually an NPC of plot importance.

[taltamir]

The reason that scrolls are the most commonly referred to way of getting new spells is this: they're consistently in most games. Yes, there are other ways to get spells (borrowing your friend's spellbook), but the availability of that option is entirely up to the DM and what he gives you, the Wizard. Your Wizard might have a ton of friends with spellbooks they'd be happy to share, or he might have no friends, and all other Wizards are so paranoid that if you so much as greet them they start casting spells at you. On the other hand, scrolls are (mostly) everywhere. Kill some [generic monster], and there's a chance you'll get a scroll as loot. Wanna head back to town after a hard day's adventuring? You can buy scrolls at Ye Olde Magic Shoppe. As an added bonus, there's a much higher chance of you getting the spell you want if you buy from a shop.

that makes no sense whatsoever. the DM controls the availability of both, and can and often DOES restrict scroll access. If you have a ye olde magic shoppe then it should feature "scribing books" with one spell each that you may pay to scribe from (each such book pays for itself after a single such scribe).
and why would "generic monsters" have scrolls, they can't use them unless they have very high UMD or are wizards themselves.

You say that scrolls cost XP (and GP) to scribe. Yes, that's true. However, it doesn't cost the Wizard that's scribing the scroll into his spellbook that XP. The XP cost has already been paid. For that reason, the XP cost is pretty much irrelevant.

I am saying that as a wizard I'd have to be a moron to scribe scrolls for cash. it costs me XP.
If I want to sell someone a spell, I would scribe a copy of it into a brand new spellbook, and have him pay me ahead of time to copy said spell; AND put a deposit. At worst he steals it and I turn a modest profit (for keeping the deposit), at best he returns it and I have got a brand new spellbook that cost me NOTHING.

I'm not saying that getting spells from scrolls is the best option, I'm just saying that it's consistently in most games, and is slightly easier on the DM than trying to figure out what extra spells he wants you to get from your friend Joe's spellbook.

that is a ridiculous statement. If I go to the local magic mart (you said there is one), then the DM decides EXACTLY which spells are available for copying from joe's (the owner) spellbook, and exactly which spells are available in scroll form. If I ask for a spell he doesn't want to give me, than said spell is not available in either form. there is 0 extra effort on his part.

EX:
wizard: ok, I go to the magic mart
DM: alright, it is a nice tower in the rich section of town, the owner is called joe, he asks you what you want today.
PC: show me all the spells you have
DM: "you don't even know what you want? stop wasting my time, either be specific or get out"
PC: fine fine... does he have shivering touch in a spellbook for copying?
DM: no
PC: does he have it as a scroll
DM: no
PC: does he have fly?
DM: he has fly, in both scroll form and in a copying book.
PC: ok, I want to pay to scribe it

EX2:
wizard: ok, I go to the magic mart
DM: alright, it is a nice tower in the rich section of town, the owner is called joe, he asks you what you want today.
PC: show me all the spells you have
DM: he has any spell under 4rd level, in the PHB and SC, higher level spells just ask me specifically.
PC: alright, I want shivering touch/
DM: no
PC: you said he has all spells under 4th level.
DM: yes but that spell is broken, you can't have it.
PC: does he have fly?
DM: he has fly, in both scroll form and in a copying book.
PC: ok, I want to pay to scribe it

[nightwyrm]

that makes no sense whatsoever. the DM controls the availability of both, and can and often DOES restrict scroll access. If you have a ye olde magic shoppe then it should feature "scribing books" with one spell each that you may pay to scribe from (each such book pays for itself after a single such scribe).
and why would "generic monsters" have scrolls, they can't use them unless they have very high UMD or are wizards themselves.

Some DM uses the random treasure generator tables.