What does GURPS NOT do well compared to DnD 3.5

[golem1972]

My DnD group has been toying with the idea of switching to GURPS.

I have been doing a little research into the system when I came across this thread http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=144016 .

Basically I've been getting a sense that the system is more sophisticated, more detailed, and a lot more work for the DM.

What I haven't been seeing is a quick / easy / simple / balanced way of creating encounters of the difficulty level I want. In 3.5, if I want to throw a quick random encounter at the PCs, I just pick a difficulty level (APL +/- 0 to 4ish) and the type of encounter (combat, trap, social, puzzle, etc.). In GURPS, it seems that (for the most part) I need to create every monster / NPC / whatchamacallit from scratch and playtest out whether or not its an appropriate challenge. It becomes more of a problem when trying to use multiple elements (multiple monsters, layered traps, complex skill problems). In DnD, I'd just add together enough lower CR items to get a higher CR.

I'm the type of person that dwells on the details. My monsters don't carry random treasure. They have equipment that they use (if appropriate). So I'm not a big fan of the suggested quick and dirty (roll and shout / spray and pray) method of (pick damage / type of attack, mumble out an appearance, pick defense / health) encounter creation with its attendant "fudge the amount you missed your guess by".

The DnD CR system is not without problems. It's only an approximation. It doesn't stand up to very high or low optimization. Some CRs are just wrong (Adamantine Horror, etc...), but at least it gets me in the ballpark.

That's the only problems I've come across so far. Having said all of this... Transhuman Space is making me drool just a little. :)

[Mike_G]

It's a lot more work for the DM.

I'm sure my views on the disadvantages are well known.

That said, you can build just about anything. Which is nice, but, again, much more work for the DM to decide what is and is not OK.

[JoshuaZ]

I'm sure my views on the disadvantages are well known.

Other than the DM issue what others do you have?

[Tinydwarfman]

I find that GURPS doesn't do dungeon crawl as well as D&D, regardless of Dungeon fantasy for that exact reason. Note that you don't have to completely stat up every monster - only big NPCs. The thug need only have 4 things: Basic stats (ST+DX), a weapon skill, special abilities, and tactics.

Also: In GURPS, I find you have much more fun if you don't focus on combat, and instead do an adventure where the PC's have to use stealth and other skills to survive - GURPS has a VERY nice and robust skill system. Let the PC's know that if they charge in they will die, and this is much more realistic system than D&D.

Other than the DM issue what others do you have?

Let's not turn this thread into that one.

[erikun]

1.) D&D does a better job of indicating power level (theoretically).

Basically, a character's level is indication of their strength and what they can accomplish. This is easily measured in D&D by level. GURPS, by contrast, has a "point value" which takes a bit to add up and may not indicate their true abilities. 1000 points spread over multiple skills and abilities in not the same as 1000 points dedicated purely towards unarmed combat.

This makes it easier to balance characters against each other and against challanges - at least, it's supposed to.

2.) D&D has lots of pre-generated monsters.

D&D has the advantage of having a bookful of creatures, convienently categorized by level, to throw at a party. To be fair, games like GURPS do have "Monster Manuals" as well, but as I said earlier, it's more difficult to measure the strength of a character in GURPS than by just "He's level 5" in D&D.

This is kind of a different philosophy, though. D&D is primed towards lots of things that you fight/kill/overcome. GURPS is more geared towards any significat encounters being more than a single boss battle. Take your pick of which you'd prefer to use.

3.) D&D limits character choices to classes.

This can be either a plus or a minus. If you're just looking for a build that can hit stuff with a sword, or just cast magic, then the D&D classes are capable of doing so. You don't need to be familiar with every skill and action in order to pick out the correct skills and abilities as in GURPS. Of course, that also means your character is inheritly limited to playing one class or another - including those limits on skills and abilities.

--

Overall, the timesaver for the DM is probably the biggest draw towards D&D. It's easier to throw a group of critters together, easier to know what each class can do, easier to see how strong the PC group is.

[Volkov]

Generally, the more freedom in creation a system has, the more work the DGM has to do. GURPS has quite a heavy workload for DM's, and isn't the type of RPG for people who like to fully stat out every single thing the PC's meet.

Also, D&D has much, much more pre-generated stuff for DM's to use, further cutting down on the workload.

Thirdly, D&D 3.5e has sadly finished it's run, (A good 3 years before it should have done so ideally) so pretty much all the material is out there. However, this means that splatbooks are now hard to find due to it being out of print for several years.

[Fhaolan]

GURPS is very much a toolbox, and covers a large span of genres and settings. As such, there's a lot of information in GURPS books and only a small subset of that will likely be useful for a specific campaign. It takes a lot of effort to filter out the stuff that doesn't apply. For example, the 4th edition Martial Arts book includes a lot of information about the history of martial arts in RL, and details a lot of different martial art styles. If you are playing in a homebrew campaign world, the GM will need to adjucate all the styles and how, when, and if they become available. This is the primary problem that many seem to have with GURPS, it's not plug-and-play. Even when using a setting book as a basis, the GM needs to put a *lot* of effort in filtering all the other GURPS sourcebooks down to the relevant pieces.

Earlier editions of GURPS also suffer from disorganization of rules. For example, in the body of the Basic book for 3rd edition revised there is a table of armour. At the end of the book there is a couple of pages that detail armour in medieval and modern settings. The table in the body of the book is a subset of the armours and appears to be for full-body armour. The pages in the back of the book are more extensive and are for piecemeal armour. The problem is that there is no indication as to how the piecemeal armour maps to the full armours. The costs and weights don't add up consistantly. Some full armours are noted to include helms with rules as to how those helms are restrictive to vision and the like, but none of the helms in the piecemeal lists have those same restrictions and there are no notes as to which helm are the ones included in the full suits. And this is just in the Basic book. When supplimentary books are added like the Low Tech book or the Martial Arts book, they tend to include references to items in the text descriptions and then complete miss them in the reference tables with the actual game statistics.

This isn't too far off of D&D *in general* but it does point out that when you are comparing GURPS to D&D 3.5 you really should compare a specific edition of GURPS to D&D 3.5. While rules in GURPS editions are a lot closer to each other than the rules in D&D editions are, there still are differences in organization and editing.

Oh, and one of the strange things of 1st-3rd edition of GURPS is that the sourcebooks are usually labeled by the edition of the sourcebook itself, not the ruleset edition. I think the 2nd edition of the Vehicle book was actually for the 3rd edition of the ruleset, because the 1st edition of the Vehicle book was printed during the 2nd edition of the ruleset. This confusion seems to have rectified for the 4th edition as they are explicitly puting 'For GURPS 4th edition' on the covers of all the 4th edition ruleset books.

[a_humble_lich]

Although I know this thread is what GURPS does NOT do well, let me say one unexpected problem with the CR method of creating encounters is it can lead to complacency in players. When the players know that everything they run across is balanced for them to fight they are less likely to run away or surrender. Which can have tragic consequences when the GM is trying to capture PCs.

Also, I would second (third?) GUPRS not being as good with the dungeon crawl.

[a_humble_lich]

Actually the second edition of GURPS Vehicles was the second edition they made within GURPS 3e. GURPS 3e has been around a long time--I've never seen or heard anything about the first two editions, and I've been playing GURPS since the late 80s. Because it was around for such a long time there are several supplements that have gone through multiple editions while remaining within GURPS 3e. And through those supplements there have been significant rules changes since the start of 3e. I view the Compendium as a GURPS 3.5e

In theory, the new fourth edition rules should consolidate and simplify a lot of this confusion. as well as provide some minor rules tweaks. (I haven't seen too much of the Fourth edition, so I can't say for sure.)

[lesser_minion]

Although I know this thread is what GURPS does NOT do well, let me say one unexpected problem with the CR method of creating encounters is it can lead to complacency in players. When the players know that everything they run across is balanced for them to fight they are less likely to run away or surrender. Which can have tragic consequences when the GM is trying to capture PCs.

Also, I would second (third?) GUPRS not being as good with the dungeon crawl.

Which is why the DM employs a mix of encounters. It's recommended in the DMG that around 1 in 20 fights is completely out of the players' reach.

3 in 20 fights are expected to be utterly hideous, and no more than half should be CR = APL.

[Alcopop]

What does GURPS NOT do well compared to DnD 3.5

I'll let you know when I finish reading the damn thing.

[valadil]

GURPs does not do easy character creation. I've been playing for years and I still rely on a java app to build characters. Playing is easy enough, but building characters is a pain.

GURPs gives less of a sense of accomplishment when you advance. This is more of a personal preference than a criticism. I like levels. I like seeing the character advance by leaps and bounds at a time. And I like to feel more powerful with each level. Maybe my group is conservative on dishing out XP, but I don't feel like I'm gaining much power as the game progresses.

[Unwitting Pawn]

I'll let you know when I finish reading the damn thing.

Haha Which edition? And how far have you got?

[Unwitting Pawn]

My DnD group has been toying with the idea of switching to GURPS.

What is your group's motivation for change? This can have a big impact on whether you'll enjoy the result of the change. Also, are you looking at GURPS 4e, or the previous edition?

Basically I've been getting a sense that the system is more sophisticated, more detailed, and a lot more work for the DM.

This is a fair sum-up. It can be more work for the players too (during chargen) but this can be eased a lot by the GM doing prep-work.

What I haven't been seeing is a quick / easy / simple / balanced way of creating encounters of the difficulty level I want. In 3.5, if I want to throw a quick random encounter at the PCs, I just pick a difficulty level (APL +/- 0 to 4ish) and the type of encounter (combat, trap, social, puzzle, etc.). In GURPS, it seems that (for the most part) I need to create every monster / NPC / whatchamacallit from scratch and playtest out whether or not its an appropriate challenge. It becomes more of a problem when trying to use multiple elements (multiple monsters, layered traps, complex skill problems). In DnD, I'd just add together enough lower CR items to get a higher CR.

Take a look on the SJGames forum. If you search around, there is 1) a fair bit of advice on the approaches to balance encounters in GURPS and 2) a number of fan-made monsters, including D&D conversions, and one guy even posted up a monster-creation-toolkit thread on there