Swallow Whole + Polymorph [3.5]

[MachineWraith]

So the situation came up in a game the other day where our party fighter managed to get swallowed whole by a T-rex. The party wizard used Polymorph Any Object, and changed the dino into an iguana, pointing out that the PAO wouldn't have any effect on the fighter.

I didn't want to slow the game down trying to look the effect of that up, so I just ruled that the iguana 'sploded, then returned to its original form upon death, resulting in a very messy, very disgusted, but very alive fighter.

Was that a correct ruling? Are there any official rules on something like that at all? My search-fu must be weak, for I have found nothing.

[Yorrin]

I've never heard anything official for that situation, but I'd encourage player creativity (unless your players frequently try to pull one over on you). I'd rule it the same way in my campaigns.

[BobVosh]

I woulda had more fun with it. Most of the enlarge/shrink spells says that they grow until they fill the room or reach full height. You can't break a room open with one. I would have made the thing into a very large lizard with the fighter squeezed in tight until they could cut him out, where it finishes shrinking to normal iguana size.

Same effect, really, but funnier in my mind.

[Grumman]

I'd just give it the +4 bonus to its save for being transmuted into a fatal form, the same as you would if you Baleful Polymorphed it into a fish.

[Lord Vukodlak]

I'd just give it the +4 bonus to its save for being transmuted into a fatal form, the same as you would if you Baleful Polymorphed it into a fish.

Sounds reasonable

[graeylin]

i would just remember your player's wishes and your ruling, and the NEXT time they use a PAO or polymorph, or any other spell to shrink a player, remember to enact the exact same rule.


Changing the rogue into a bat, so he can fly up into a castle and spy? Oooh, too bad about that 8 ounce steak you ate and haven't digested yet. It remains in huge, human bite size lumps, and weighs more than you. you can't fly.

[2xMachina]

For the above post, it's more fitting for the PC to explode, cause his lunch is bigger than him.

Thus, the spell does not work that way. Either PC shrinks along with the dinosaur, or he pops out magically without damaging it.

[Grumman]

i would just remember your player's wishes and your ruling, and the NEXT time they use a PAO or polymorph, or any other spell to shrink a player, remember to enact the exact same rule.

Changing the rogue into a bat, so he can fly up into a castle and spy? Oooh, too bad about that 8 ounce steak you ate and haven't digested yet. It remains in huge, human bite size lumps, and weighs more than you. you can't fly.

Equipment and held objects can meld into the new form. So unless your steak is still alive at the time you're getting Polymorphed, it won't cause any trouble.

[Emmerask]

i would just remember your player's wishes and your ruling, and the NEXT time they use a PAO or polymorph, or any other spell to shrink a player, remember to enact the exact same rule.

That´s what I was thinking too
Makes polymorphing, wildshaping and shrinking a very very risky business.
Druid: "I wildshape into an eagle!"
dm: "splat, your companions see a lot of disgusting stuff when an eagle exlodes next to them" "pls roll a new character".

[Doppelganger]

I'd say the fighter just shrinks to fit the stomach (that's probably what happens when PCs use it on themselves)

[Toliudar]

I'd argue in favour of "rule of cool" for these situations, and applaud the OP's choice. I had a similar situation happen when my polymorphed sorcerer swallowed an opponent, and was killed a couple rounds later. Her swallowed victim exploded out of her suddenly-human form...and then died a round later from his wounds.

[Dyllan]

There is no text in Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph or Alter Self that mentions constriction based on size increase. So the way I see it, lack of room (due to growing or shrinking) wouldn't prevent the spell. Rather, you'd bust seams (think the Incredible Hulk's shirt), or take damage when growing (Incredible Hulk if he was wearing a very tight shirt made of thick steel). The same should count when shrinking.

I'd have the fighter and the polymorphed creature deal damage to each other until either the fighter dies, becoming an object, not a creature, and thus shrinking like any other food in the creature's belly, or the creature dies, reverting to its natural form, in which the fighter still must escape from the belly (although that is much easier now).

I'd also grant the +4 bonus to the save that someone else mentioned.

[Kaiyanwang]

I'd argue in favour of "rule of cool" for these situations, and applaud the OP's choice. I had a similar situation happen when my polymorphed sorcerer swallowed an opponent, and was killed a couple rounds later. Her swallowed victim exploded out of her suddenly-human form...and then died a round later from his wounds.

Seconded. At worst, apply the wise suggestion of +4 and you are done.

Players have been imaginative, and to save a party member, so reward them with a scene full of fun.

AND, tt worst, crush the fighter with some bludgeoning damage

[Roderick_BR]

i would just remember your player's wishes and your ruling, and the NEXT time they use a PAO or polymorph, or any other spell to shrink a player, remember to enact the exact same rule.


Changing the rogue into a bat, so he can fly up into a castle and spy? Oooh, too bad about that 8 ounce steak you ate and haven't digested yet. It remains in huge, human bite size lumps, and weighs more than you. you can't fly.

The fighter counts as another target, and could have his own save. The food the rogue got is technically an attended object, so it would change with him

My question is: What if the druid turns into something big, swalows something, then tried to reverst to his human-sized (or halfling/gnome sized) shape?

I point again to the My Favourite Martian movie, where one of the characters actually do it, and the swallowed guy.... just vanishes.

[Frosty]

More importantly, what if someone casts Polymorph/Shapechange on himself after being swallowed and changed into something as big or bigger than the swallower?

[Frog Dragon]

This happens.

[2xMachina]

More importantly, what if someone casts Polymorph/Shapechange on himself after being swallowed and changed into something as big or bigger than the swallower?

That one has rules. Str check to break, or just large enough to fit inside.

However, there are no rules on shrinking someone/thing with someone else inside.

[Irreverent Fool]

Actually, I recall something about changing sizes and swallow whole in something official. The creature swallowed simply emerges in a space adjacent to the creature as if it had escaped normally. Basically in the shrinking process, the swallowed creature is shunted off/out/regurgitated.

Swallow whole already makes little dramatic sense. "Oh, I dealt enough damage to the inside of the stomach to escape but the creature's body sealed off the wound!" All creatures with swallow whole have the stipulation that they suffer no ongoing detrimental effect from having a creature tear its way out of their stomach. Cool factors aside, I don't see why changing size should be any different in this case.

Anyway, I'm looking for the source. I think it was in Dragon.

Edit: Also, kudos to the OP for thinking on his feet rather than bogging the game down to look it up. If the same situation happens to a pc somehow, you might allow them -- in spite of their forgetfulness of what happened to the iguana -- a fort save,.

obnoxious
sig

[taltamir]

More importantly, what if someone casts Polymorph/Shapechange on himself after being swallowed and changed into something as big or bigger than the swallower?

a PC will never be stupid enough to swallow ALIVE... PCs know the value of CHEWING. (speaking of, whats the damage on chewing?)

I woulda had more fun with it. Most of the enlarge/shrink spells says that they grow until they fill the room or reach full height. You can't break a room open with one.

Polymorph is NOT an enlarge or shrink spell.

i would just remember your player's wishes and your ruling, and the NEXT time they use a PAO or polymorph, or any other spell to shrink a player, remember to enact the exact same rule.

Changing the rogue into a bat, so he can fly up into a castle and spy? Oooh, too bad about that 8 ounce steak you ate and haven't digested yet. It remains in huge, human bite size lumps, and weighs more than you. you can't fly.

Steak isn't a living creature. But you better not have tapeworms :P.

There is no text in Baleful Polymorph, Polymorph or Alter Self that mentions constriction based on size increase. So the way I see it, lack of room (due to growing or shrinking) wouldn't prevent the spell. Rather, you'd bust seams (think the Incredible Hulk's shirt), or take damage when growing (Incredible Hulk if he was wearing a very tight shirt made of thick steel). The same should count when shrinking.

I'd have the fighter and the polymorphed creature deal damage to each other until either the fighter dies, becoming an object, not a creature, and thus shrinking like any other food in the creature's belly, or the creature dies, reverting to its natural form, in which the fighter still must escape from the belly (although that is much easier now).

I'd also grant the +4 bonus to the save that someone else mentioned.

I agree with pretty much all of it...

I think there should be three possible situations:
1. Just plain PaO a creature into a small creature while it already has a small creature in it. The two deal constrict damage to each other until one of them dies. (resulting in larger creature either exploding, or finishing the transformation with whats in their stomach now dead).
In almost all situations (where the swallowed creature was not wearing gear) that would just mean that smaller creature dies, since it should have less HP. bonus damage to larger creature if what he swallowed included swords, armor, and other tough metal thingies attended by the living creature inside it.

2. the PaO is MEANT by the caster to rupture the big creature. The big creature gets a +4 to save DC, but if it fails it dies by exploding without dealing constrict damage to whats inside it (basically a refluffed PaO SOD with identical mechanical effect but cooler result).

3. The PaO is MEANT by the caster to crush the swallowed creature. the big creature gets a normal save which it may willingly fail if it wants to crush whats in its stomach, the creature on the inside gets a save at +4. If both fail the save, the creature inside is crushed dead, if the outer creature makes its save (inside creature irrelevant), it doesn't shrink, if creature outside fails its save (probably on purpose) and creature inside makes his save, then they just deal constriction damage until one of them dies.

[MachineWraith]

Edit: Also, kudos to the OP for thinking on his feet rather than bogging the game down to look it up. If the same situation happens to a pc somehow, you might allow them -- in spite of their forgetfulness of what happened to the iguana -- a fort save.

Heh. I usually try to keep the game flowing. If something comes up that I'm not sure about, the Rule of Cool kicks in. I've already told my players that if I don't know the ruling on something, I'll rule it however is coolest, and then if I find out that's not how it works, I'll tell them the next time so they're aware.

Since nobody so far can come up with an official ruling, I'm not sure which of the suggestions presented I like the most. The constrict damage until one or the other dies is cool, but most monsters with Swallow Whole have a significant HP pool, so the player would, more often than not, lose. Hmmm...

[taltamir]

Since nobody so far can come up with an official ruling, I'm not sure which of the suggestions presented I like the most. The constrict damage until one or the other dies is cool, but most monsters with Swallow Whole have a significant HP pool, so the player would, more often than not, lose. Hmmm...

I did point out that in such a cast armor and weapons do extra damage... kinda sucks for the wizard, but if it swallowed a warrior who is bristling with sharp steel, shrinking around that would be nasty...

[ericgrau]

This happens.

Eh that strip always annoyed me on account of the fact that V shapechanged into a mature adult black dragon at best while inside of an ancient black dragon.

IMO killing things without a save is a bad idea, especially if it works even against things that are far stronger than you. It seems fine when the player polymorphs the T-rex into an iguana, with a save, but what if instead he was swallowed and polymorphed himself into a brontosaurus, no save?

EDIT: Come to think of it the V vs ABD fight irked me at every step. Here's what should have happend: ABD casts AMF... which is beyond his capability were it not for a house rule. V casts disjunction on it, and in spite of her high caster level it fails. The dragon charges V and V is now forced to stick to epic spells while inside the AMF. The dragon beats into V hard. V's first epic spell kills the dragon. He could have won without an epic spell, but she planned the fight very poorly. I'm okay with that part since his poor planning was a major plot point.

[taltamir]

Eh that strip always annoyed me on account of the fact that V shapechanged into a mature adult black dragon at best while inside of an ancient black dragon.

IMO killing things without a save is a bad idea, especially if it works even against things that are far stronger than you. It seems fine when the player polymorphs the T-rex into an iguana, with a save, but what if instead he was swallowed and polymorphed himself into a brontosaurus?

who says she didn't get a save in that strip?
the +4 if used to make a lethal form is already pretty painful on PaO for combat use. It is an ineffective SOD compared to those that make the enemy lose +0 save, or worse, save at penalty (example, feeblemind). Taking it to the point of nasty results to the players when they use just mean they will not use that spell this way anymore, instead they will use any other SOD / SOL. So +4 save and whomever the caster wanted to die dies is a reasonable result.

[deuxhero]

a PC will never be stupid enough to swallow ALIVE... PCs know the value of CHEWING. (speaking of, whats the damage on chewing?)

Equal to your bite attack (or a CDG with your bite if inanimate)

[taltamir]

Equal to your bite attack (or a CDG with your bite if inanimate)

when chewing, I can bite more than once in 6 seconds.

[ericgrau]

who says she didn't get a save in that strip?

She wasn't targeted. Shapechange has no save as it targeted the caster.

when chewing, I can bite more than once in 6 seconds.

Maybe not when it's squirming. I mean, I can swing a sword more than once per 6 seconds. But attempting a hit is a different story, and actually landing it yet another challenge.

[MachineWraith]

IMO killing things without a save is a bad idea, especially if it works even against things that are far stronger than you. It seems fine when the player polymorphs the T-rex into an iguana, with a save, but what if instead he was swallowed and polymorphed himself into a brontosaurus?

That is quite a good point, actually. Perhaps in the future, I'll allow the creature who would be killed by the effect a save. If it passes, it vomits the swallowed creature back up before it completes the change.

What save would that be, you think?

[Volkov]

She wasn't targeted. Shapechange has no save as it targeted the caster.

I think the creators of the game would rule that the dragon would get a save. Otherwise that would be a horribly imbalanced way to defeat every monster with swallow whole.

[taltamir]

She wasn't targeted. Shapechange has no save as it targeted the caster.


Maybe not when it's squirming. I mean, I can swing a sword more than once per 6 seconds. But attempting a hit is a different story, and actually landing it yet another challenge.

he shapechanged himself, she got a save... had she succeeded with the same, his shapechange would have failed and she wouldn't have died.
or maybe it did X damage, notice she was fairly injured and he was unharmed at the time.. so maybe it was constrict damage until one of them died (and thanks to his stoneskin, he could take a lot more of it then a barely alive dragon)

That is quite a good point, actually. Perhaps in the future, I'll allow the creature who would be killed by the effect a save. If it passes, it vomits the swallowed creature back up before it completes the change.

What save would that be, you think?

fortitude save I think.

[ericgrau]

IMO the above 3 posts work, but it is a houserule. I'm not saying the swallower should automatically die either. That'd also be a houserule, even if it's a more subtle one. It's up to you how you handle it.