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2010-03-10, 10:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jun 2009
(PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
Do familiars of wizard or sorcerers in Pathfinder gain feats and skills the higher they go?
All familiars you can choose normaly (without the Improved Familiar Feat) are CR 1/8 to CR 1/2 animals with 1 HD.
But on becoming a familiar they have the HD of the caster (well caster-level anyway). They also become Magical Beasts instead of Animals
So say a level 8 wizard has a familiar, would that one gain 3 more feats? (3rd, 5th, 7th level).
How about skills? Since the familiars Int is always increasing how many Skillpoints would they get per level? Till level 8 they would apperently get only one skillpoint per level (2+int mod, and with level 8 they have -1) (if they even get skills), but with level 9 they get 10 Int, and would get 2 skillpoints now. Do they get that extra skill retroactively for all 8 levels before, or just from now on?
Their damage apperently never increases (well they're not really combat pets, so thats ok).
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2010-03-10, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2009
- Location
- Montreal, Canada
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
if I remember right familiars don't have HD , thus they don't have feats
as for skills I give you SRD
Skills
For each skill in which either the master or the familiar has ranks, use either the normal skill ranks for an animal of that type or the master’s skill ranks, whichever are better. In either case, the familiar uses its own ability modifiers. Regardless of a familiar’s total skill modifiers, some skills may remain beyond the familiar’s ability to use.
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2010-03-10, 11:00 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jun 2009
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
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2010-03-10, 11:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2006
- Location
- Scotland
- Gender
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
No they would not. Any time a character or creature gains HD or class levels they also gain skill points and, if appropraite, feats as well. In the case of familier's they would gain skill points, Hit points, save increases and BAB increases as per the magical beast entry (which is to say, D10 hit dice, full BAB, Good Fort and Ref and 2 + int skill points per HD).
It should be noted however that the familier's HD does not increase - It simply count's as having the master's for the purposes of other things (like spell's such as Sleep which only specifically target creatures of certain hit dice).
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2010-03-10, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- The Land of Angles
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
Familiars don't get HD as their master levels up. They just get treated as having HD for the purposes of spells and other effects that specifically target creatures with certain amounts of HD.
Animal companions and special mounts, though, do gain HD, and therefore gain feats and skill points.
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2010-03-10, 08:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Terra Australis
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Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
Got a related question here (I once asked it in the Q&A thread, but didn't get an answer): a familiar is treated as having HD equal to it's master for "effects". Would this include templates that have scaling abilities with HD, like celestial or fiendish?
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
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2010-03-10, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2009
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
I wouldn't think so, since those are HD dependent abilities not spells or magical effects.
Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2010-03-10 at 09:48 PM.
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2010-03-10, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
Technically? Up for grabs, ask your DM. It's not exactly broken to spend A Feat to give your familiar the Celestial or Fiendish template, and letting it get the ... resistance 5 or 10 to two or three energy types (depending on level), and DR/Magic depending on level. Most of the alternate Improved Familars are stronger than the standard familiars + Celestial/Fiendish template.
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2010-03-11, 12:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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- Terra Australis
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Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
Originally Posted by SRD
If it's the former, there's a strong argument for allowing template based progression. I know it's OK from a balance standpoint, but I'm interested in whether it's RAW or not.My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
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2010-03-11, 12:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2009
- Location
- Fl
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
Nope, it says "for the purposes of", and that it still has the normal ammount of hit dice.
Play a manifester if you want to do whatever it is you are doing. Psi crystals actually gain hit dice proper (construct HD, but HD) plus they are easily replaced if destroyed and don't blow up your XP.
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2010-03-11, 10:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
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2010-03-11, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
I'd say if your spending a feat to simply make your familiar a celestial/fiendish creature its probably fair to let it scale.
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2010-03-11, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2005
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Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
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2010-03-11, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2010
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
and let's all bow our heads and thank Vecna, Boccob, and Corelleon that familiars don't get feats, or there'd be cheese like familiars taking Leadership, and gaining another mage with a familiar with leadership........................................ .................................................
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2010-03-11, 12:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
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2010-03-11, 02:44 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2009
- Location
- England
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2010-03-11, 03:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2007
- Location
- Terra Australis
- Gender
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
Again, yes, I know it would be balanced. I was looking for a RAW definition. This is not for an actual character, I'm seeking a rules definition. In this particular case, I would be the DM, and the character an NPC. I know I can use DM fiat to rule however I like, but I would like to be clear on the RAW before I do so.
I'm not sure why "for the purposes of" would be a disqualifier...if it specifically read "for the purposes of abilities based on templates" then it would work. I don't think "for the purpose of" is the sticking point, it's which usage of the word "effect" that is the issue.
The wording is a bit vague - I'm not 100% convinced it means "effects" solely in the D&D term of "status effects". If it's the general English usage of the word "effect", it can be argued the SR, energy resistance etc. are indeed effects. It seems my reading of it is in the minority, however.My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
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2010-03-11, 05:33 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2010-03-11, 07:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
- Location
- Fl
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
May have been mistaken.
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2010-03-11, 07:37 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
No. A familiar is one of those creatures from a list of familiars. That list does not include templated versions of those creatures. Compare to summon monster's lists, which do contain templated (and untemplated) creatures. Celestial and Fiendish templates are not normally available for familiars.
I realize this answers a slightly different question, but the outcome is the same.
Furthermore, I believe that 'abilities granted based on HD' are 'abilities' and not 'effects'.
Edit: "For the purposes of" seems to be used as a disqualifier throughout many books and the SRD.
obnoxious
sigLast edited by Irreverent Fool; 2010-03-11 at 07:43 PM.
On DMPCs: "Remember, nothing will spice up your campaign quicker than long descriptions of NPC’s doing spectacular stuff while the players sit around and watch." -Shamus Young, DM of the Rings
Divide By Zero: Irreverent Fool, you are my hero.
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2010-03-11, 07:43 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2006
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
Last edited by Jack_Simth; 2010-03-11 at 07:44 PM.
Of course, by the time I finish this post, it will already be obsolete. C'est la vie.
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2010-03-11, 07:45 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2007
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
My mistake. I don't know why I thought the lists didn't include templated creatures.
It seems the solution would be to find a character in an official source that has the improved familiar feat and see what abilities it has.
Edit: Judging by the example Alienist in Complete Arcane, familiars do gain additional template abilities based on HD, as the pseudonatural toad has the abilities of a 10 HD pseudonatural creature.
obnoxious
sigLast edited by Irreverent Fool; 2010-03-11 at 07:54 PM.
On DMPCs: "Remember, nothing will spice up your campaign quicker than long descriptions of NPC’s doing spectacular stuff while the players sit around and watch." -Shamus Young, DM of the Rings
Divide By Zero: Irreverent Fool, you are my hero.
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2010-03-11, 08:16 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jul 2007
- Location
- Terra Australis
- Gender
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
Yeah, sorry if my reply seemed a bit snippy. It's hard to convey tone with text.
Excellent, that was the justification I was looking for.
What actually prompted this question is the Fiend Blooded PrC, which allows the character to apply the Fiendish template to his familiar for free...looking at the sample character's familiar, I now see that the same rule appears to apply there (Fiendish Toad has DR 5/magic). I should have picked up on this before.
Thanks to all for your input and suggestions.Last edited by Thurbane; 2010-03-11 at 08:19 PM.
My winning competition entries: Kinvig Arrumskor | The Great Pumpkinhead | Wynfrith d'Acker
Torn-City - Massively multiplayer online browser based crime RPG
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2010-03-12, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- San Antonio, Texas
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Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?
Hit Dice: For the purpose of effects related to number of Hit Dice, use the master's character level or the familiar's normal HD total, whichever is higher.The Cranky Gamer
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2010-03-12, 11:23 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2004
- Location
- The Land of Angles
Re: (PF) Do Familiars gain feats/skills ?