(PF/3.5) Any suggestions for making sword and shield/ two-weapons worthwhile?

[GoatToucher]

So it has really seems like wielding anything but a two handed weapon is a waste of time. You all seem like a feisty bunch of go-getters who like to solve problems, so tell me this: what systems do you use to make two weapon or weapon and shield styles more effective?

[Sinfire Titan]

Two Weapon characters can generally keep up with Power Attackers (at least until Shock Trooper gets mixed in or whent he mulitpliers exceed X6). The way to fix this is to make Power Attack and TWFing more friendly with each other (lifting the One Handed restrictions on TWFing with a Skill Trick instead of a Feat is a good start).

Sword & Board is generally better just going Board. You can optimize the Shield itself into the straosphere, thus making it a viable form of offense and defense.

[Saph]

Sword and shield actually works fine at low levels. Most first-level enemies can be dropped with one hit anyway and +2 AC is often more useful than overkilling a target. It's only once you get to level 6 or so that two-handers are significantly better.

At higher levels a simple, quick solution is to increase the power of shields. Make a large shield something like +4 AC, and a small shield something like +3. This is actually pretty realistic - as anyone who's ever tried it will tell you, getting past a big shield is annoyingly difficult to do in real life. Ban Animated Shields, allow shields to count towards Touch AC, and you have a quick and effective fix.

TWF, on the other hand, I wouldn't touch. If you have some way of adding bonus damage onto each strike, TWF is already effective (eg Rogue, Scout, Swordsage). It's a niche fighting style and I don't think there's any real need to change it.

[nyarlathotep]

Additionally pathfinder adds a feat that lets you use your full strength modifier to your offhand weapon.

[Eldariel]

So it has really seems like wielding anything but a two handed weapon is a waste of time. You all seem like a feisty bunch of go-getters who like to solve problems, so tell me this: what systems do you use to make two weapon or weapon and shield styles more effective?

TWF:
- Combine the feats to one feat; no feat tax.
- Enable attacking with both weapons after movement, on a charge and on an AoO; no feat tax.
- Allow using Dex to attack with finessable weapons by default, Weapon Finesse adds Dex to damage; lessened MAD.

S&B:
- Immediate action to attempt block on an attack (or touch attack) within your natural reach with an opposed roll.
- Shields automatically add to Touch AC against all Ex forms of attack.
- Magical shields automatically add to Touch AC against all Su and Ex forms of attack.


Quick, elegant, efficient. Alternatively, just use Tome of Battle; it pretty much does all of the above except remove feat tax.

[faceroll]

Girallon's blessing (spc spell) gives you a second set of arms, which lets you 3HF with your sword and hold a shield.

[the humanity]

>>

<<

everdancing. a bit tough to get, but once you have it, forever useful.

[Harperfan7]

I have some homebrewed parry/riposte feats that rely on two weapon fighting combined with sword and board.

Thing is, they still don't compare to a fairly optimized two hander. They'll work a lot better in pathfinder, due to the fact that you get more feats and that power attack is nerfed. They weren't tested in pathfinder, but see for yourself.

EDIT: Enjoy!

Spoiler

Show

Parry
Pre: Dex 13+, Combat Reflexes
Benefit: Whenever you are targeted by anything that requires an attack roll that isn't a ranged touch or a ray, you can expend an attack of opportunity to try to parry the attack. This functions as an opposed attack roll. You must declare that you are parrying before you know the result of their attack roll. If your attack roll is higher than theirs, you parry the attack. You cannot make more parries in any one round than you have attacks in a full attack action. Your first parry in a round uses your full attack bonus, the second uses your first iterative attack, and so on.

If you are fighting with two weapons, you may parry with either at your discretion and may make as many parries as you have attacks with both weapons up to your max number of AoO‘s per round. If you are hasted or are using a weapon with the speed enchantment, you gain an extra parry each round (up to your max number of AoO's).

For each size category larger than yours a weapon is, you suffer a -2 penalty to your parry roll (if you are parrying with a shield, this penalty is halved). If your opponent is using power attack, you take a penalty to your parry roll equal to the bonus damage the opponent receives from power attack (if you are parrying with a shield, this penalty is halved). If you use combat expertise while parrying, you also gain the ac bonus to your parry roll.

If you are two weapon fighting with a shield via improved shield bash and you use your shield to make a parry, you gain its shield bonus to armor class to your parry roll (but not its enhancement bonus if it’s enchanted as a weapon) and reduce the two weapon fighting penalty by 2. You cannot use a currently animated animating shield to parry.

You can only make one parry attempt for each enemy attack roll. Every attack you use to parry with, you lose during the following round (they reset at the end of your turn). You have to be aware of an attack to parry it, though you can parry flat-footed because of combat reflexes. You can parry an AoO against you, but not riposte it. You cannot parry when charging (or the AoO that comes after your charge). You cannot parry a riposte. You can parry a sunder.

Improved Parry
Pre: Dex 13+, Combat Reflexes, Parry
Benefit: Any size penalty your weapon/shield receives when parrying a larger weapon is lessened by 2.

Riposte
Pre: Dex 13+, Combat Reflexes, Parry
Benefit: Whenever you parry an attack, you may immediately expend another AoO to counterattack your opponent as a free action during their turn at the same attack bonus as the parry. This does not use an additional attack from the following round. If you are fighting with two weapons, you riposte with the weapon you did not parry with (at the base attack bonus as the parry). You cannot parry a riposte.

[Sinfire Titan]

Found some old Homebrew feats for Shields I made a while ago:

Combat Expertise
Prerequisite: Int 13, proficient with Light Steel Shields
Benefit: When wearing a shield, you may take the Fighting Defensively action at no penalty to your offensive capabilities. Additionally, the bonus to AC from using that action increase to 2+your Int modifier. Additionally, you may take the Fighting Defensively action as part of the Attack action or Full Attack action, allowing you to take your full attack unhindered.
Normal: Using a shield does not negate the penalties imposed by the Fighting Defensively action. The bonus to AC from the Fighting Defensively action is only +2.
Special: You must be holding the shield in hand or have it attached to your body in some way (shield gauntlet or buckler). Dancing Shields cannot be used with this feat unless you forgo the enhancement’s ability.

Improved Combat Expertise
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise
Benefit: While wearing a shield, you may take the Full Attack action and declare you are taking the Total Defense action simultaneously. At any point during this round, you may take an Immediate action to intercept an opponent's attack with your shield, granting you a Deflection bonus to AC equal to 4+your Int modifier against that attack.
This feat's benefits and requirements replace the Total Defense action, including the penalties associated with that action (allowing you to make attacks of opportunity when using the Total Defense action). You still cannot combine the Total Defense action with the Fighting Defensively action.
Normal: Total Defense is a standard action that grants a +4 dodge bonus to your AC for 1 round. Your AC improves at the start of this action. You can’t make attacks of opportunity while using total defense.
Special: As with Combat Expertise, you must be holding the shield to use this feat.
Improved Disarm [Base]
Prerequisite: Combat Expertise
Benefit: You receive a bonus to the opposed attack roll for Disarm attempts equal to 4+your Int modifier (minimum +4 bonus to Disarm attempts). You no longer provoke an attack of opportunity for making a Disarm attempt, nor can your opponent Disarm you if you would fail the attempt.
Shields you wield as weapons gain the Disarming ability (see Weapons Fix). If you successfully disarm someone using such a shield, you may roll damage against them as though you had attacked them normally.
Base: Using this feat functions as the normal Disarm attempt, as outlined in the Player’s Handbook. No special action is needed, you merely need to replace one of your attacks with a Disarm attempt (gaining the attack may require an action).

[Harperfan7]

Ok, I edited them in.

[The Glyphstone]

>>

<<

everdancing. a bit tough to get, but once you have it, forever useful.

Well yeah, considering it's a +8 epic enhancement. Most characters don't have 1.6 million gold to throw around on a +1 weapon.
EDIT: Interesting homebrew feats.

One suggestion though, outright state that 'parrying' a melee attack means it does no damage. It may sound silly, but that does need to be mentioned, since parrying has no definition in D&D yet.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

ToB and sneak attack help a lot.

Crusader can sword and board quite well with little outside investment.

TWF can be very good if your adding lots of damage to all attacks from a cource other than weapon type and strengh.

Playing around dipping rouge/swordsage and rogue prestige classes you can approach the damage output of an ubercharger at mid levels. Without dumping AC and with a lot more versatility.

[Grommen]

Espically under the pathfinder rules with it's slightly better damage for power attack, and the feat that allows you full damage with your off hand (something that I've always allowed in my games without needing a feat anyway). As well as having more feats eventually in PF. I think that TWF is pretty good. Add in the old 3.5 splat books and you can get oversized two weapon fighting, so you can take feats on just one set of weapons. There is also feats to up your AC with your off hand (yae parring daggers!)

Also if you have a class with enough feats available (Ya I know that might require the dreaded fighter class), your not really limited to just one way of fighting. If you focus on a Bastard Sword you can use any combination of fighting styles and be very versitle. Just use what ever style looks best for any given encounter. Might not be 100% optimized in any given build but so what? This is not a game that you should be perfect in every aspect anyway.

Could just be our playing style but after the second attack (IE -5 to hit) the rest don't seem to hit all that often (-10 to hit or worse), so having an off hand attack at your base attack bonus seems to work out better for our group. Our TWF guy does just about as much damage as our berzerking Greatsword wielding guy in most fights, even though the Greatsword does twice the damage in one swing.

Were not even getting into the PF Palidian that fights with a Bastard sword and Rapier. Some really sick things it can do already.

[a typical hero]

ToB and sneak attack help a lot.

Crusader can sword and board quite well with little outside investment.

Mind to elaborate? I'm playing a Crusader currently but i can't see (besides of a few maneuvers) how it fixes sword&board.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

Mind to elaborate? I'm playing a Crusader currently but i can't see (besides of a few maneuvers) how it fixes sword&board.

Well, maneuvers in general are nicer to S&B, because they give you more damage without requiring two-handing or another source of bonus damage. You can basically pick up the usual shield-boosting feats you'd use for S&B normally and a few of the maneuvers that add damage and you're good to go.

[John Campbell]

Thing is, they still don't compare to a fairly optimized two hander. They'll work a lot better in pathfinder, due to the fact that you get more feats and that power attack is nerfed. They weren't tested in pathfinder, but see for yourself.

I'm not sure that what Pathfinder did to Power Attack can be unconditionally called a nerf, especially for purposes of this thread. They lowered the cap on the to-hit penalty you can take, yes, and turned it into a binary effect rather than a tunable one, but they also increased its return ratio across the board (and proportionately more for one-handed than two-handed), and removed the restriction on Power Attacking with light weapons.

You can Power Attack with light weapons at 2:1 in Pathfinder. You can Power Attack even with off-hand light weapons at 1:1. A two-weapon fighter with a basic one-handed + light weapon setup gets the same return from Power Attack that a two-handed fighter gets (2:1 + 1:1 = 3:1). The two-weapon fighter is still at a disadvantage because of the to-hit penalties involved in two-weaponing and the feat tax (also less painful in Pathfinder) and so on, but is no longer looking at the two-hander dishing out twice as much damage from Power Attack on top of everything else.

If your strategy involved Power Attacking for full every round and relying on Shock Trooper or true strike or whatever to let you land attacks anyway, then, yeah, it's nerfed, because you'll run into that cap hard. If you were planning on usually Power Attacking for more moderate amounts, then it's more of a wash... you may still run into the cap, but the increased ratio means you'll be getting about as much payoff for it regardless. If you're a light weapon or two-weapon fighter, it's been definitely buffed, because you can use it where you couldn't before - and you get the payoff ratio with a light weapon that vanilla 3.5 gave you with a two-hander.