Archivist vs. Wizard: Who wins?

[Fortuna]

Assume three situations for this, at levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20.

1. Straight one-on-one arena combat. A hemisphere with radius 1000' feet, impenetrable by normal means.

2. The same arena as 1, but with a party of Fighter McFighter, Sneaky the Rogue, and Your Friendly Neighbourhood Heal-and-Buffbot Cleric to help out.

3. The two learn of each other's existance at the exact same moment, just before preparing spells for the day. The hunt is on!

[Gametime]

Assuming unlimited scroll access, I imagine it would come down to whether or not Archivists are allowed to scribe wizard scrolls into their prayerbooks based on various ways of making arcane spells "count" as divine.

If Archivists are limited to normal divine classes, I think they'd win before level 15, but the wizard would dominate afterwards.

[Nohwl]

what books are allowed?

[Fortuna]

Assume all books, full WBL, and permit buying any scrolls for both parties.

[Pluto]

Prestige classes?

Because that's the main thing going for a Wizard, given that just about any spell can wind up in the Archivist's book one way or another.

[Fortuna]

Any prestige classes, but no multiclassing (like you'd want to, but needed saying).

[Superglucose]

Incantatrix for the win?

[nolispe]

As the arcane fanatic that triggered the construction of this thread, I would like to second that.

[TaintedLight]

Incantatrix for the win?

Man, suddenly my computer reeks of cheese :p.

[Azernak0]

It either breaks down to "which person is more creative with contingent defenses?" or a vicious game of rocket tag. Whoever goes first is likely to win. X goes first, Y casts Celerity, X counters with Celerity, Plane Shift to a Genesis created Plane where time is 1,000,000 times faster and begin Gating in all the Solars in the Universe.

The winner between the two? No idea.
The loser? Who ever is between the two!

[Optimystik]

Due to their similarly expansive spell lists, I'd give a straight Archivist the edge over a straight Wizard, due to class features (specifically, Dread Secret.) Stun the wizard as a move action, no save, no SR, leaving his standard and swift actions free to initiate lockdown.

PrCs muddy the issue - the Wizard qualifies for most of his, while the Archivist faces many hurdles to overcome (no turning, no domains, no wildshape, no trackless step etc.) And generally, Wizard PrCs are better; furthermore, a wizard loses nothing from diving in as soon as possible, but an Archivist is faced with a tradeoff.

[arguskos]

No matter who wins, we all lose. It'd be a hell of a show, though.

[Pluto]

That makes this a wrestling match between Arcane and Divine PrC's.

(Both classes have access to every spell effect and the ability to research limitless new ones. The Wizard has an advantage in this exercise by way of his bonus feats and Abrupt Jaunt/familiar/animal companion, but with Sword of the Arcane Order, the Archivist has more diverse built-in spell access.)

I think the Incantatrix and War Weaver beat just about anything, including the Dweomerkeeper, that Divine Spellcasting has to offer.

So I'd lean toward the Wizard at every level, but I would hesitate to pretend that meant anything.

[arguskos]

(Both classes have access to every spell effect and the ability to research limitless new ones. The Wizard has an advantage in this exercise by way of his bonus feats and Abrupt Jaunt/familiar/animal companion, but with Sword of the Arcane Order, the Archivist has more diverse built-in spell access.)

Actually, I have a question. Is there a way for a Wizard to get Druid-only spells such as Creeping Cold? If so, how is this done? I can't figure out any way to do it, but REALLY LIKE Creeping Cold and Splinterbolt, and want them as arcane spells for a specific NPC.

[Defiant]

It either breaks down to "which person is more creative with contingent defenses?" or a vicious game of rocket tag. Whoever goes first is likely to win. X goes first, Y casts Celerity, X counters with Celerity, Plane Shift to a Genesis created Plane where time is 1,000,000 times faster and begin Gating in all the Solars in the Universe.

The winner between the two? No idea.
The loser? Who ever is between the two!

This elicited a hearty laugh from me

[faceroll]

The wizard will, on average, go first at levels 1, 5 and 10, because he will have a slight feat advantage (war wizard ACF for imp initiative, then picking up blooded and other +2 init feats), as well as being able to cast nerveskitter out of a 1st level spell slot instead of a 3rd (the archivist has to use anyspell to get it), and then at 10th, when the wizard can cast celerity out of a 4th level slot instead of a 6th level slot (the archivist needs greater anyspell to cast it).

The wizard can avoid the dark knowledge stun by not being a dragon, aberration, or undead, though I think that comes into play at level 14.

The wizard also has less MAD, giving him slightly more HP/saves/dex, and better class feature support, like domain wizard, elf generalist, focused specialist, and collegiate, which give him an advantage in spells known/wbl/spells per day. These differences matter much less above level 10, when the number of spells and WBL are truly vast.

[Devils_Advocate]

20th level: Using their powerful divinations, stupendous Intelligence scores, and mastery of game theory, the wizard and the archivist realize that they have more to gain by working together, team up, and conquer the world in accordance with the Credo of Optimal Choice: "To truly know the right path is to be compelled to walk it."

[Pluto]

Actually, I have a question. Is there a way for a Wizard to get Druid-only spells such as Creeping Cold? If so, how is this done? I can't figure out any way to do it, but REALLY LIKE Creeping Cold and Splinterbolt, and want them as arcane spells for a specific NPC.

One way: Spontaneous Divinations (CC) + Drake Helms (Explorer's Handbook) can get you any arcane spell. Any scroll - whether typically arcane or divine - bought from a Warlock, Geomancer or Southern Magician can be arcane. Those scrolls can be used to calibrate the Drake Helm. This isn't practical in a campaign, but it can work in an arena setting.

Or RAW Polymorph, according to K's interpretation. But that's even more abusive. At least have the decency to use Assume Supernatural Ability or Shapechange.

In a campaign environment, Wizards can use indirect means like Summoning, Planar Binding and Domination to generate spell effects. (If there's a spell, there's an Outsider or Elemental that can cast it.) If you want to be the one casting the spell, the BoED has rules for Binding Outsiders.


The most practical way is to independantly research a modified version of the effect you want.

There's also UMD, but that's not really a Wizard's strength. Without PrC's anyway.

[arguskos]

One way: Spontaneous Divinations (CC) + Drake Helms (Explorer's Handbook) can get you any arcane spell. Any scroll - whether typically arcane or divine - bought from a Warlock, Geomancer or Southern Magician can be arcane. Those scrolls can be used to calibrate the Drake Helm.

Or RAW Polymorph, according to K's interpretation. But that's even more abusive. At least have the decency to use Assume Supernatural Ability or Shapechange.

In a campaign environment, Wizards can use indirect means like Summoning, Planar Binding and Domination to generate spell effects. (If there's a spell, there's an Outsider or Elemental that can cast it.) If you want to be the one casting the spell, the BoED has rules for Binding Outsiders.

There's also UMD, but that's not really a Wizard's strength. Without PrC's anyway.

I kinda meant as a spell known in their spellbook, for metamagic silliness later. The Drake Helm trick seems like it might be the thing I'm looking for though. I COULD just give the NPC in question an arcane version of both and call it custom researched, but if my players ask, I do like to have a way for it to be done.

Thanks though, I appreciate it.

[Petrocorus]

One way: Spontaneous Divinations (CC) + Drake Helms (Explorer's Handbook) can get you any arcane spell. Any scroll - whether typically arcane or divine - bought from a Warlock, Geomancer or Southern Magician can be arcane. Those scrolls can be used to calibrate the Drake Helm. This isn't practical in a campaign, but it can work in an arena setting.

On the other way, how an archivist get arcane spell?

[Wings of Peace]

Assume all books, full WBL, and permit buying any scrolls for both parties.

Assuming full scroll hacking then I think they have the same spell list. Or are we assuming the merchants they purchase scrolls from do not in fact have levels/feats invested in things that let them jumble around what type of spell they scribe scrolls as?

[Superglucose]

That makes this a wrestling match between Arcane and Divine PrC's.

(Both classes have access to every spell effect and the ability to research limitless new ones. The Wizard has an advantage in this exercise by way of his bonus feats and Abrupt Jaunt/familiar/animal companion, but with Sword of the Arcane Order, the Archivist has more diverse built-in spell access.)

I think the Incantatrix and War Weaver beat just about anything, including the Dweomerkeeper, that Divine Spellcasting has to offer.

So I'd lean toward the Wizard at every level, but I would hesitate to pretend that meant anything.

Yeah that's pretty much how I feel too. I think that generally, Divine PrCs tend to be the equivalent of close to, say, Master Specialist: they add to the class a fair amount of power. Arcane PrCs on the other hand go from Green Star Adept (LOL!) to Initiate of the Seven Fold Cheese (... quite powerful indeed, my dear friends).

Then there's Incantatrix, which is like "I get your stacked nightsticks as a class feature!" "Oh man look at that, Arcane Thesis on every spell!"

[Volkov]

20th level: Using their powerful divinations, stupendous Intelligence scores, and mastery of game theory, the wizard and the archivist realize that they have more to gain by working together, team up, and conquer the world in accordance with the Credo of Optimal Choice: "To truly know the right path is to be compelled to walk it."

Then pun-pun comes in and kicks both of their rears.

[Analytica]

Actually, I have a question. Is there a way for a Wizard to get Druid-only spells such as Creeping Cold? If so, how is this done? I can't figure out any way to do it, but REALLY LIKE Creeping Cold and Splinterbolt, and want them as arcane spells for a specific NPC.

The most legal way is probably to take levels in Wyrm Wizard. Recaster or Fiend-Blooded works too, the former for any spells, the latter for some classes of spells. You can get divinations off any list from Unseen Seer.

[Roderick_BR]

It either breaks down to "which person is more creative with contingent defenses?" or a vicious game of rocket tag. Whoever goes first is likely to win. X goes first, Y casts Celerity, X counters with Celerity, Plane Shift to a Genesis created Plane where time is 1,000,000 times faster and begin Gating in all the Solars in the Universe.

The winner between the two? No idea.
The loser? Who ever is between the two!

Or around. Or within the same plane of existence, at least.

[Amiel]

Rocks fall; literally. We all die.


Depends on how much access the archivist has to spell options. If allowed unfettered access, the archivist could potentially out-spell the wizard.

[peacenlove]

Or around. Or within the same plane of existence, at least.

Transdimensional spell multiplies the devastation caused

On a serious note, since they are both aware of each other, how scry and die tactics would work for each one? Sending simulacrums and Shadow Weave Magic illusions to test the rival's defenses? Who would be better in a war of attrition? I don't think its a war that would last rounds at the very least.

[Eldariel]

1st level, Wizard. Abrupt Jaunt is just that good. 5th level, probably Wizard still. Abrupt Jaunt is still that good. Though Silence is a big one for Archivist. It's just that unfortunately, Abrupt Jaunt happens to sorta trump that. 10th level, whoever took Tainted Scholar.

Hm, I guess you could get it by 5 if you really cared. But yeah, who took the Scholar won. Alternatively, if either PAOd into Beholder or Illithid and decided it's time to Beholder Mage/Illithid Savant it up. Barring Tier -1 classes, I'd give the edge around 10 to Wizard, still. Incantatrix has already kicked to full gear, but Dweomerkeeper is still a bit lacking (not to mention, entering Dweomerkeeper as an Archivist is non-trivial as you don't have Domains).

Archivist is prolly DMMing to his heart's content, but Inc just has more gas. Also, Archivist's spell availability on crap like Celerity is a bit restricted. Abrupt Jaunt loses relevant around 10 though. Though Archivist's Divine Spell access helps a lot at this point. On 15, I'd give Archivist the edge if he gets into Dweomerkeeper and Wizard doesn't since he can do sickness with Supernatural Spell and Wizard just can't counter it (tho do mind, it's not impossible for a Wizard to enter Dweomerkeeper). On level 20, Prolly...umm, yeah.


Note that Dark Knowledge doesn't really work on Humanoids so that's not very relevant.

[Optimystik]

Yes, I was mistaken about Dread Secret - however, it keeps the Wizard from polymorphing/shapechanging, because it works on just about everything but animals, humanoids, fey, oozes and constructs.

Archivists are not as MAD as they seem - They get plenty of spells, Will is a strong save, and they get Still Mind, so dumping Wis is not a huge problem. They can get by fine with a 10 or 12.

[Wabbajack]

Wait, I thought Archivists could get Celerity as 4th level spell, because of Divine Bards...