[3.5] Optimizing Sanctuary at lv 1

[Kumori]

I'm trying to optimize a character for a game, and I'm intending to use Divine Metamagic to Persist a casting of Sanctuary. What I need help with is getting the DC for the Will save to be through the roof. As a level one character, I'm getting Extra Turning and Extend Spell as bonus feats from my domains, and I have two feats going to DMM and Persistant Spell. This leaves me with one feat remaining, or 2 if I use human. Obviously those can go to Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus, bringing the save DC to 17, but I'd like to get that higher. Any suggestions?

[penbed400]

Sounds good for a Sacred Vow -> Vow of Nonviolence chain there. It will boost all spells (that don't harm a target) DC by 4. Though Sacred Vow is kind of an empty feat unless you want to focus on diplomacy which you might want to. There are some hangbacks on the feat though so make sure you look at those before you take it.

It's in the Book of Exalted Deeds

[Kumori]

Looks like that would be good, but unfortunately BoED isn't allowed...

[Akal Saris]

Well, obviously maximizing your Wisdom will raise the DC. Depending on the build, going for middle-aged or older might be worthwhile.

Anything that reduces your opponents' saves effectively raises the DC. So if they are somehow sickened, shaken, or otherwise weakened, that will help you. Might be some persisteable non-attack aura spells that would achieve that.

[Optimystik]

Not to scupper your plan or anything, but you can't persist a touch range spell (like Sanctuary.) Per the FAQ, "Touch" does not qualify as "personal or fixed" for the purposes of the feat.

[Kumori]

Not to scupper your plan or anything, but you can't persist a touch range spell (like Sanctuary.) Per the FAQ, "Touch" does not qualify as "personal or fixed" for the purposes of the feat.

Can you quote something to show that? Have a look at the never-ending-dungeon thread. People are Persisting the spell Lesser Vigor which is also a touch spell.

[Kaiyanwang]

Can you quote something to show that? Have a look at the never-ending-dungeon thread. People are Persisting the spell Lesser Vigor which is also a touch spell.

Well consider that persist vigor is simply wrong by his own, because by spell compendium, its duration is maxed to 25 rounds.

I think that I say this almost once a week

[Kumori]

Well consider that persist vigor is simply wrong by his own, because by spell compendium, its duration is maxed to 25 rounds.

I think that I say this almost once a week

I almost want to start debating this, but I can't bring myself to derail my own thread. As such, I'll just say I disagree with this, and leave it at that.

[qoalabear]

If this is for the NED, the grand DMs there have chosen to houserule "touch" range as "fixed" for the purposes of persisting. The difficulty is insane enough and endurance is so important, that persisted lesser vigor and a handful of other infinite-heal cheeses are par for the majority of successful builds.

I'm not sure what more you can do with DCs... There aren't really any other feats beyond the two spell focus feats.

For maxing Wis, there's not too many options under these rules.
-Lesser Aasimar (Lesser planetouched is in EberronPlayer's Guide to Faerun. I think it just dropped you from outsider to humanoid and removed the LA) have +2Wis.
-Dreamsight Shifters gain +2Wis while shifted, so shift just to cast your persisted spells.
-Uldra (It's cold outside) is a fey that has +2Wis, but you probably want to avoid the LA+1.
Those are the only races in Crystal Keep's index that are valid for NED (no racial HD, maximum +1LA, no dragon magazine) and boost wisdom.

Can't really afford magic items on starting gp, but maybe there's an optional material component that would boost the saves and be affordable on maximized starting gp? You only have to cast the spell once per day after all.

I'm somewhat curious how you plan on attacking like this. Are you using Precocious Apprentice into Summon Elemental reserve feat?

Edits:My memory failures have been stricken. See below for more.

[Kumori]

That last part makes no sense to me as I'm not familiar with Precocious Apprentice. Yes this is for NED, but I'm just brainstorming right now. If I can get the DC high enough, most monsters could just be ignored, but since they're overcome I still get the XP.

[qoalabear]

Never mind about the reserve feat. There was cheese at one point to qualify for the Summon Elemental Reserve feat. Then summon small elementals ad infinitum. (Combined with Persisted Sanctuary, complete invincibility). Precocious Apprentice gives you a single 2nd level spell known and a slot to cast it in. I forgot that Summon Elemental needed a 4th level spell slot though. The actual cheese used to qualify for the reserve feat was DMM Heighten Spell until Tanaric banhammered DMM Heighten into the Abyss (this was back in the second recruitment thread).


On the races, Lesser Aasimar may be your best bet. Lesser Planetouched is in Player's Guide to Faerun and replaces the Outsider type with Humanoid(Planetouched) making them vulnerable to spells that target Humanoids and outsiders. They get all the other traits, including the pretty +2Wis +2Cha. I'm not sure what spells target outsiders specifically because as native outsiders, they were never susceptible to Banishment(the given example in PGtF) in the first place.

I'm not sure that standing there and watching your opponents give up and ignore you necessarily counts. As it stands, you have no way to hurt the opponents (summon spells will be a very limited resource), so I'm not sure you'll qualify for "the monster gives up, you win." The recruitment/OOC threads detail only one instance of this and it was because both combatants had sufficient AC that neither was connecting and the player had infinite healing (or something along those lines).

[Soonerdj]

Jermalaine from MM3 has +6 Wis, Tiny Size, and flies. Not sure if it is allowed for NEDC

[Kumori]

Jermalaine from MM3 has +6 Wis, Tiny Size, and flies. Not sure if it is allowed for NEDC

I doubt that it would be. If it has racial HD or a LA above +1 it can't be used.

Edit: found it in MM2. Looks like it doesn't have an "As Characters" information block, or anything like that, so I don't know...

[qoalabear]

Jermalaine from MM3 has +6 Wis, Tiny Size, and flies. Not sure if it is allowed for NEDC

Seems it's actually in MM2, which is on the Arena banlist and thus on NED's banlist. Nope.

Does anyone know which books have optional material components other than BoED/BoVD (they're banned)? There's a couple in CM that raise spell level to boost DCs, but neither is applicable to Sanctuary.

Edit: The Arena rules are the basis of the NED's ruleset as a handy reference. The only big change is the addition of gestalt and that racial progressions are banned.

[Kaiyanwang]

I almost want to start debating this, but I can't bring myself to derail my own thread. As such, I'll just say I disagree with this, and leave it at that.

Fork in another thread. I don't assume that I posses absolute truth (my previous comment was mostly about the fact that I tend to repeat myself getting older )

[Kumori]

So so far the best I figure is possible is DC 19. That's a base of 11 (10+spell level) + 6 wisdom (base 18, +2 racial, +2 age) + 2 (Spell Focus and Greater SF). Unfortunately, DC is not nearly enough to be able to get through, seeing as I can't attack or it ends. I guess this plan is a fail.

[Nich_Critic]

DMM heighten as well? A player in one of my first campaigns gave me grief this way. It was low level, so my monsters couldn't dispell him, so if they failed their save, he was untouchable.

[Optimystik]

What's the LA on Anthropomorphic Bat? They get a ton of Wis, IIRC.

[Douglas]

Well consider that persist vigor is simply wrong by his own, because by spell compendium, its duration is maxed to 25 rounds.

I think that I say this almost once a week

Right. And that maximum is part of the duration line, which is replaced in its entirety by the application of Persistent Spell.

[Kaiyanwang]

Right. And that maximum is part of the duration line, which is replaced in its entirety by the application of Persistent Spell.

I was basing my reply on FAQs. But better we end now or PM, becasue the OP asked to not derail on this.

[Sliver]

That last part makes no sense to me as I'm not familiar with Precocious Apprentice. Yes this is for NED, but I'm just brainstorming right now. If I can get the DC high enough, most monsters could just be ignored, but since they're overcome I still get the XP.

What gave you that idea?

You get the XP only if you can defeat them. Fights sometimes take too long or redundant to roll out due to not having the chance of losing, but unless it's dead, you don't get XP.

[Godskook]

What gave you that idea?

The DMG, of course.

[Sliver]

The DMG also gives different amount of xp for those challenges, tells you that you waste 50% of your resources on them and also get xp from traps.

Some stuff are just not like in the DMG.

[Optimystik]

Unless it's dead, you don't get XP.

This is simply not true. You just have to make a case to your DM that you overcame the challenge some other way.

And of course you get XP from traps - they have a CR, don't they?

[Sinfire Titan]

There's a feat in PH2 that raises the DC of one spell you cast each day by 4, but penalizes your Con and Fatigues you. Considering you are going to be persisting Sanctuary, the Con penalty doesn't end up being so scary.


Also, if you persist the spell 10 hours before you actually get into an encounter, the Con penalty doesn't matter.

[Sliver]

This is simply not true. You just have to make a case to your DM that you overcame the challenge some other way.

And of course you get XP from traps - they have a CR, don't they?

I was talking of the NeverEnding Dungeon, which is the game that is mostly discussed. Beating an encounter is set as defeating a monster. If it escaped, no xp, if you can't kill it but it can't kill you, no xp. If it's a trap, no XP.

Note: I am aware of this is not true to other cases, but this is a H&S dungeon mostly.

[faceroll]

Seems it's actually in MM2, which is on the Arena banlist and thus on NED's banlist. Nope.

Does anyone know which books have optional material components other than BoED/BoVD (they're banned)? There's a couple in CM that raise spell level to boost DCs, but neither is applicable to Sanctuary.

Edit: The Arena rules are the basis of the NED's ruleset as a handy reference. The only big change is the addition of gestalt and that racial progressions are banned.

I know ECS does, and UA has metamagic components.

What's the LA on Anthropomorphic Bat? They get a ton of Wis, IIRC.

None. They get +6 wisdom. I'm guessing SS is banned, though.

[Godskook]

I was talking of the NeverEnding Dungeon, which is the game that is mostly discussed. Beating an encounter is set as defeating a monster. If it escaped, no xp, if you can't kill it but it can't kill you, no xp. If it's a trap, no XP.

Note: I am aware of this is not true to other cases, but this is a H&S dungeon mostly.

Are these special rules for the NeverEnding dungeon then? Interesting....

[Cieyrin]

There's a feat in PH2 that raises the DC of one spell you cast each day by 4, but penalizes your Con and Fatigues you. Considering you are going to be persisting Sanctuary, the Con penalty doesn't end up being so scary.


Also, if you persist the spell 10 hours before you actually get into an encounter, the Con penalty doesn't matter.

Arcane Consumption requires arcane CL 6, along with Toughness and Arcane Toughness, so no go on that front.