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2010-03-12, 12:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
I noticed something funny when playing a wizard with an even minimal amount of optimization (loremaster because of being core only) I ended up with will being my lowest save.
Why you ask?
Items (thanks to crafting):
+5 cloak of resistance
+6 gloves of dex
+6 amulent of con
+6 headband of int
Stats:
STR: 8/-1
DEX: 16/+3 [22/+6] (+6 Enchantment: Gloves of Dex)
CON: 12/+1 [18/+4] (+6 Enchantment: Amulet of Health)
INT: 21/+5 [27/+8] (+3 Levelup, +6 Enchantment: Headband of Int)
WIS: 8/-1
CHA: 8/-1
Loremaster secrets: +2 fort, +2 ref.
Fort Save: 14 (3 class, 4 con, 2 secret, 5 magic cloak)
Ref Save: 16 (3 class, 6 dex, 2 secret, 5 magic cloak)
Will Save: 13 (9 class, -1 wis, 5 magic cloak)
End result is 16 ref, 14 con, and 13 will.
Even without secret will isn't the best... and actually, I have too much dex and too little con, in a normal game I would have swapped them, but this character was meant to be a duplicate of WOTC playtesting (its an evoker wizard, with no more then 12 starting con).
I just thought this was an interesting thing to have occurred.I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2010-03-12, 12:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2008
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- Minnesota
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Last edited by Temotei; 2010-03-12 at 12:46 AM.
Homebrew
Please feel free to PM me any thoughts on my homebrew (or comment in the thread if it's not too old).
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2010-03-12, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2006
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- Utah
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
A level or two in Archmage might change things.
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2010-03-12, 12:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
feel free to observe:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133816I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2010-03-12, 12:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2006
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- Oakdale, PA
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
I don;t think that's really unusual. All of my wizards dump Charisma first, then wisdom. It's not an ability that's needed for the class, and their will saves are already progressing faster than the other two. The three usually end up at about the same, no matter what level I am.
Avatar generously created by ukuleleninja
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2010-03-12, 12:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2010-03-12, 01:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Utah
- Gender
Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2010-03-12, 01:08 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Gender
Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2010-03-12, 01:10 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2008
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- Niagara Falls, Ont
- Gender
Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
Mind Blank, much?
How much do you suspect this being an issue. From what I experienced in D&D, most DM's ( at least mine ) target melee characters with mind-effecting will saves.
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2010-03-12, 01:22 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
I'm not sure what this was meant to prove TBH. "Even though I have two good will save classes, the fact that I crafted myself stat boost items that give +3 to the other saves, took two secrets to get +2 to them and started with +2 and +4 higher base stats means that my will save is my lowest"
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2010-03-12, 01:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2010-03-12, 01:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2009
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2010-03-12, 01:28 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- Location
- Utah
- Gender
Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
You can call me Draz.
Trophies:
Spoiler
Also of note:
- Winning Entry of Gestalt Build Challenge IV
- 3rd Place in Iron Chef XI (Blade Bravo)
- Judge of Iron Chef XXIII (Divine Champion)
I have a number of ongoing projects that I manically jump between to spend my free time ... so don't be surprised when I post a lot about something for a few days, then burn out and abandon it.
... yes, I need to be tested for ADHD.
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2010-03-12, 01:32 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2008
- Gender
Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
yes and no...
If you ignore the secrets and have a more typical 14 dex 14 con starting stats instead of 16/12, you end up with all three saves being identical.
I would say the dumping wis is normal for wizards. And boosting con and dex is NOT done for the saves, Con is for the HP (although fort is nice too). Dex is for the AC (particularly vs ranged touch attacks) and my own ranged touch attacks.
I find that survivability vs other wizards it really helps to dodge their spells or soak up their DD. (especially when you are not high enough level to afford all day spell based immunity defenses)
I also have to choose between amulet of wisdom and amulent of con... con is a better choice for anyone BUT a wisdom caster.
I think most standard wizards will have similar results.Last edited by taltamir; 2010-03-12 at 01:33 AM.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2010-03-12, 01:36 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
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2010-03-12, 01:37 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2010
Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
part of the reason I don't even bother increasing my will save with the wizard is that I know nobody will target it :)... they expect me to have bad reflex and fort, they will be surprised.
But in practice, the DM will have perfect knowledge of the party's stats, strengths and weaknesses. So I wouldn't really be surprised if he decided to metagame once in a while...
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2010-03-12, 01:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2010-03-12, 01:44 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2009
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2010-03-12, 01:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Feb 2009
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- Seattle, WA
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
Ancestor feats are first level only, you can only have one, and humans have to use their bonus feat to take one.
Incidentally, the feat in question, Keen Intellect, doesn't give you Int to Will according to Oriental Adventures (it gives +1 to Int checks and Knowledge, Search, and Scry/Spellcraft skill checks instead). However, this says it does.
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2010-03-12, 01:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
ah yes... that was the problem I had with it... I actually found it in crystal keep database as int to will. but when I looked it up I saw it does NOT actually give you int to will. someone made the mistake that it does and it has been reprinted all over the internet. but if you check the source you find it doesn't actually.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2010-03-12, 01:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
Right... because wotc always talks about how they playtested with evokers. No, wait, soon after the release of 3.0 and 3.5 they had about 7 dozen guides telling you other unusual things to do including unusual spells and special attacks, invented the "batman" wizard in them and then logicninja stole it a couple years or so later right down to the poorly copied examples. The DMG says sleep is perhaps the best 1st level spell. Though that may be carryover text from 3e when it was even more uber before it got nerfed... b/c wotc never pays attention to these spells right? Then wotc continued the controller archetype right through to 4e, giving the striker role to other classes.
Back on topic, I had a sorcerer with will as his low save for similar reasons. Two things to remember:
1. Allips will end you. Buy scrolls of lesser restoration for your party divine casters to find on your person. At your level it wouldn't hurt to grab the +2 wisdom ioun stone for 8,000 gp.
2. Be sure to be familiar with all will affecting effects both to provide defenses and to make sure the rules aren't misinterpreted horribly against you.Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-03-12 at 01:57 AM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)
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2010-03-12, 02:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- Israel
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
A wise monk trains both mind and body, but a smart monk is actually a swordsage.
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2010-03-12, 02:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2010-03-12, 02:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
what is an allip?
Since I used crafting to get 200k items on a budget of 110k GP, I doubt anyone but the cleric (who did the same!) has better will save then me.
{table]character|fort|ref|will|total
wizard (me)|14|16|13|43
fighter|18|9|8|35
cleric|15|9|19|43
rogue|8|17|5|30
[/table]Last edited by taltamir; 2010-03-12 at 02:11 AM.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2010-03-12, 02:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2007
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
They are the incorporeal spirit that is notoriously under CR'ed when in groups, due to their wisdom draining attack: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm
Hence the scrolls of lesser restoration you kindly donate to the party cleric. For that matter if your group uses psions you're open to an ego whip, or w/e other creatures have ability drain. A couple ioun stones will give you a +2 without taking item slots, which is affordable enough and better than nothing.Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-03-12 at 02:13 AM.
So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)
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2010-03-12, 02:21 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Indianapolis
- Gender
Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
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2010-03-12, 02:22 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
Last edited by taltamir; 2010-03-12 at 02:22 AM.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2010-03-12, 02:35 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2007
- Location
- Indianapolis
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
Adding New Abilities
The change made in the MIC was to remove the additional cost for adding very basic properties like AC, save, and stat bonuses, so you didn't have to deal with the "do I want Wisdom or Con? Save bonus or Charisma?" questions (because it turned out that everybody needed all of that for basic functioning.) The core rules allow for combining items, you just pay more to do it.
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2010-03-12, 02:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2008
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
sweet. I am currently broke, but next chance I get I will do that.. also eventually I will get the +2 willpower secret as well. So my will should catch up eventually.
I do not have a superman complex; for I am God, not Superman!
the glass is always 100% full. Approximately 50% of its volume is full of dihydrogen monoxide and some dissolved solutes, and approx 50% a mixture of gasses known as "air" which contains roughly (by volume) 78.08% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.038% carbon dioxide, and trace amounts of other gases.
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2010-03-12, 04:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2007
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- Finland
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Re: Willpower is my wizard's lowest save
Controller-archetype was actually something learned over 3.X.
Sleep was considered the best 1st level spell from the very beginning; but that's 'cause it was that way already in 2e AD&D. However, the mindset used in said testing involved using spells as they worked in AD&D; casting Fireballs and Cones of Cold aplenty come midlevels under the assumptions that SoX-spells would fail.Campaign Journal: Uncovering the Lost World - A Player's Diary in Low-Magic D&D (Latest Update: 8.3.2014)
Being Bane: A Guide to Barbarians Cracking Small Men - Ever Been Angry?! Then this is for you!
SRD Averages - An aggregation of all the key stats of all the monster entries on SRD arranged by CR.