Willpower is my wizard's lowest save

[taltamir]

I noticed something funny when playing a wizard with an even minimal amount of optimization (loremaster because of being core only) I ended up with will being my lowest save.
Why you ask?

Items (thanks to crafting):
+5 cloak of resistance
+6 gloves of dex
+6 amulent of con
+6 headband of int

Stats:
STR: 8/-1
DEX: 16/+3 [22/+6] (+6 Enchantment: Gloves of Dex)
CON: 12/+1 [18/+4] (+6 Enchantment: Amulet of Health)
INT: 21/+5 [27/+8] (+3 Levelup, +6 Enchantment: Headband of Int)
WIS: 8/-1
CHA: 8/-1

Loremaster secrets: +2 fort, +2 ref.

Fort Save: 14 (3 class, 4 con, 2 secret, 5 magic cloak)
Ref Save: 16 (3 class, 6 dex, 2 secret, 5 magic cloak)
Will Save: 13 (9 class, -1 wis, 5 magic cloak)

End result is 16 ref, 14 con, and 13 will.
Even without secret will isn't the best... and actually, I have too much dex and too little con, in a normal game I would have swapped them, but this character was meant to be a duplicate of WOTC playtesting (its an evoker wizard, with no more then 12 starting con).

I just thought this was an interesting thing to have occurred.

[Temotei]

WOTC playtesting

Hehehe...

You're funny.

[Draz74]

A level or two in Archmage might change things.

[taltamir]

Hehehe...

You're funny.

feel free to observe:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133816

[Jack Zander]

I don;t think that's really unusual. All of my wizards dump Charisma first, then wisdom. It's not an ability that's needed for the class, and their will saves are already progressing faster than the other two. The three usually end up at about the same, no matter what level I am.

[taltamir]

I don;t think that's really unusual. All of my wizards dump Charisma first, then wisdom. It's not an ability that's needed for the class, and their will saves are already progressing faster than the other two. The three usually end up at about the same, no matter what level I am.

its a shame wizards can't get int to will...

[Draz74]

its a shame wizards can't get int to will...

They can, if Oriental Adventures happens to be an allowed source.

[taltamir]

They can, if Oriental Adventures happens to be an allowed source.

isn't that a heritage feat (take at level 1 only) with some weird requirements though?

[mikej]

Mind Blank, much?

How much do you suspect this being an issue. From what I experienced in D&D, most DM's ( at least mine ) target melee characters with mind-effecting will saves.

[Kylarra]

I'm not sure what this was meant to prove TBH. "Even though I have two good will save classes, the fact that I crafted myself stat boost items that give +3 to the other saves, took two secrets to get +2 to them and started with +2 and +4 higher base stats means that my will save is my lowest"

[taltamir]

Mind Blank, much?

How much do you suspect this being an issue. From what I experienced in D&D, most DM's ( at least mine ) target melee characters with mind-effecting will saves.

part of the reason I don't even bother increasing my will save with the wizard is that I know nobody will target it :)... they expect me to have bad reflex and fort, they will be surprised.

[PhoenixRivers]

I'm not sure what this was meant to prove TBH. "Even though I have two good will save classes, the fact that I crafted myself stat boost items that give +3 to the other saves, took two secrets to get +2 to them and started with +2 and +4 higher base stats means that my will save is my lowest"

It's not meant to prove anything, I think.

I think it was just an observation on how a nonimportance of wisdom, combined with an active attempt to mitigate weak saves, can actually come full circle.

[Draz74]

isn't that a heritage feat (take at level 1 only) with some weird requirements though?

Probably. It's a "Clan Feat." I don't have OA myself, so I don't know exactly what the rules around Clan Feats are.

[taltamir]

I'm not sure what this was meant to prove TBH. "Even though I have two good will save classes, the fact that I crafted myself stat boost items that give +3 to the other saves, took two secrets to get +2 to them and started with +2 and +4 higher base stats means that my will save is my lowest"

It's not meant to prove anything, I think.

I think it was just an observation on how a nonimportance of wisdom, combined with an active attempt to mitigate weak saves, can actually come full circle.

yes and no...
If you ignore the secrets and have a more typical 14 dex 14 con starting stats instead of 16/12, you end up with all three saves being identical.
I would say the dumping wis is normal for wizards. And boosting con and dex is NOT done for the saves, Con is for the HP (although fort is nice too). Dex is for the AC (particularly vs ranged touch attacks) and my own ranged touch attacks.
I find that survivability vs other wizards it really helps to dodge their spells or soak up their DD. (especially when you are not high enough level to afford all day spell based immunity defenses)
I also have to choose between amulet of wisdom and amulent of con... con is a better choice for anyone BUT a wisdom caster.

I think most standard wizards will have similar results.

[Kylarra]

It's not meant to prove anything, I think.

I think it was just an observation on how a nonimportance of wisdom, combined with an active attempt to mitigate weak saves, can actually come full circle.

I guess. It seems rather logical to me that if you completely ignore one save, logically it will end up the lowest simply because you can easily stack far more modifiers than the slow base save progression.

[Runestar]

part of the reason I don't even bother increasing my will save with the wizard is that I know nobody will target it :)... they expect me to have bad reflex and fort, they will be surprised.

IF the DM didn't know what your stats were.

But in practice, the DM will have perfect knowledge of the party's stats, strengths and weaknesses. So I wouldn't really be surprised if he decided to metagame once in a while...

[taltamir]

I guess. It seems rather logical to me that if you completely ignore one save, logically it will end up the lowest simply because you can easily stack far more modifiers than the slow base save progression.

I didn't competely ignore it... I could have had a ring of +fort and boots of +ref for less money then my +all saves items.

IF the DM didn't know what your stats were.

But in practice, the DM will have perfect knowledge of the party's stats, strengths and weaknesses. So I wouldn't really be surprised if he decided to metagame once in a while...

1. Assuming the DM remembers.
2. its still very high for my level. what with the +5 to all saves item.

[Kylarra]

I didn't competely ignore it... I could have had a ring of +fort and boots of +ref for less money then my +all saves items.

I'll amend to 'without specifically boosting it' then, as you have miscellaneous +5 bonuses to the other two saves, not counting the increased base stats.

[Nate the Snake]

Probably. It's a "Clan Feat." I don't have OA myself, so I don't know exactly what the rules around Clan Feats are.

Ancestor feats are first level only, you can only have one, and humans have to use their bonus feat to take one.

Incidentally, the feat in question, Keen Intellect, doesn't give you Int to Will according to Oriental Adventures (it gives +1 to Int checks and Knowledge, Search, and Scry/Spellcraft skill checks instead). However, this says it does.

[taltamir]

Ancestor feats are first level only, you can only have one, and humans have to use their bonus feat to take one.

Incidentally, the feat in question, Keen Intellect, doesn't give you Int to Will according to Oriental Adventures (it gives +1 to Int checks and Knowledge, Search, and Scry/Spellcraft skill checks instead). However, this says it does.

ah yes... that was the problem I had with it... I actually found it in crystal keep database as int to will. but when I looked it up I saw it does NOT actually give you int to will. someone made the mistake that it does and it has been reprinted all over the internet. but if you check the source you find it doesn't actually.

[ericgrau]

this character was meant to be a duplicate of WOTC playtesting (its an evoker wizard, with no more then 12 starting con).

Right... because wotc always talks about how they playtested with evokers. No, wait, soon after the release of 3.0 and 3.5 they had about 7 dozen guides telling you other unusual things to do including unusual spells and special attacks, invented the "batman" wizard in them and then logicninja stole it a couple years or so later right down to the poorly copied examples. The DMG says sleep is perhaps the best 1st level spell. Though that may be carryover text from 3e when it was even more uber before it got nerfed... b/c wotc never pays attention to these spells right? Then wotc continued the controller archetype right through to 4e, giving the striker role to other classes.

Back on topic, I had a sorcerer with will as his low save for similar reasons. Two things to remember:
1. Allips will end you. Buy scrolls of lesser restoration for your party divine casters to find on your person. At your level it wouldn't hurt to grab the +2 wisdom ioun stone for 8,000 gp.
2. Be sure to be familiar with all will affecting effects both to provide defenses and to make sure the rules aren't misinterpreted horribly against you.

[Sliver]

I also have to choose between amulet of wisdom and amulent of con... con is a better choice for anyone BUT a wisdom caster.

Unless you have enough Wis to cast your 9th level spells and you are more of a buffer or a CoDzilla then anything else.. Sometimes you just don't care..

[taltamir]

Unless you have enough Wis to cast your 9th level spells and you are more of a buffer or a CoDzilla then anything else.. Sometimes you just don't care..

True, this supports my point though. I didn't wanna say it because then I'd get into an argument with people who say you must always always always max out your primary casting stat.

[taltamir]

Back on topic, I had a sorcerer with will as his low save for similar reasons. Two things to remember:
1. Allips will end you. Buy scrolls of lesser restoration for your party divine casters to find on your person. At your level it wouldn't hurt to grab the +2 wisdom ioun stone for 8,000 gp.
2. Be sure to be familiar with all will affecting effects both to provide defenses and to make sure the rules aren't misinterpreted horribly against you.

what is an allip?

Since I used crafting to get 200k items on a budget of 110k GP, I doubt anyone but the cleric (who did the same!) has better will save then me.

{table]character|fort|ref|will|total
wizard (me)|14|16|13|43
fighter|18|9|8|35
cleric|15|9|19|43
rogue|8|17|5|30
[/table]

[ericgrau]

They are the incorporeal spirit that is notoriously under CR'ed when in groups, due to their wisdom draining attack: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/allip.htm

Hence the scrolls of lesser restoration you kindly donate to the party cleric. For that matter if your group uses psions you're open to an ego whip, or w/e other creatures have ability drain. A couple ioun stones will give you a +2 without taking item slots, which is affordable enough and better than nothing.

[tyckspoon]

Since I used crafting to get 200k items on a budget of 110k GP, I doubt anyone but the cleric (who did the same!) has better will save then me.

Speaking of crafting- even if you're not using the MIC rules for stacking basic properties it would still only cost 3k (crafted cost- market is 6k) to add +2 Wisdom to your amulet or your headband, which would even up your Will save with your Fort.

[taltamir]

Speaking of crafting- even if you're not using the MIC rules for stacking basic properties it would still only cost 3k (crafted cost- market is 6k) to add +2 Wisdom to your amulet or your headband, which would even up your Will save with your Fort.

is this considered a "core only" rule? if so I would definitely do it. But I thought such stacking was not considered core (which we are limited to in that game).

[tyckspoon]

Adding New Abilities

The change made in the MIC was to remove the additional cost for adding very basic properties like AC, save, and stat bonuses, so you didn't have to deal with the "do I want Wisdom or Con? Save bonus or Charisma?" questions (because it turned out that everybody needed all of that for basic functioning.) The core rules allow for combining items, you just pay more to do it.

[taltamir]

sweet. I am currently broke, but next chance I get I will do that.. also eventually I will get the +2 willpower secret as well. So my will should catch up eventually.

[Eldariel]

Right... because wotc always talks about how they playtested with evokers. No, wait, soon after the release of 3.0 and 3.5 they had about 7 dozen guides telling you other unusual things to do including unusual spells and special attacks, invented the "batman" wizard in them and then logicninja stole it a couple years or so later right down to the poorly copied examples. The DMG says sleep is perhaps the best 1st level spell. Though that may be carryover text from 3e when it was even more uber before it got nerfed... b/c wotc never pays attention to these spells right? Then wotc continued the controller archetype right through to 4e, giving the striker role to other classes.

Controller-archetype was actually something learned over 3.X.

Sleep was considered the best 1st level spell from the very beginning; but that's 'cause it was that way already in 2e AD&D. However, the mindset used in said testing involved using spells as they worked in AD&D; casting Fireballs and Cones of Cold aplenty come midlevels under the assumptions that SoX-spells would fail.