what are some good classes with all good saves?

[taltamir]

What are some good classes with all good saves? I know the monk has all good saves, but its a terrible class.
And a flavored soul extremely bad casting compared to clerics or druids doesn't justify the all good saves... what some good in their own right classes that also have all good saves?

[Draz74]

Yeah, poor, poor Favored Soul ... "only" Tier 2 ...

[taltamir]

its over tiered. It suffers from all the drawbacks of sorcerer, PLUS its save DCs are based off of its wisdom while its spells known are based on its cha.
I tried building one once... i figured "hey, it can't be that bad"... the spells known made me cry...

granted, its better then a warrior, especially if you allow a lot of cheese and ban all tier 1 classes. but there is no reason to ever play one over a cleric or a druid or erudite etc..

[T.G. Oskar]

Yeah, poor, poor Favored Soul ... "only" Tier 2 ...

Yeah, not to mention having the larger amount of spells and the ability to cast...I dunno, Gate and Miracle several times per day. Granted, it's on the last level, though...

If the Favored Soul has bad casting, don't blame it on the fixed amount of spells; it requires the finesse of playing like a Sorcerer to work it appropriately.

[Shadowbane]

Paladin starting second level, Charisma to all saves. Even better if you take Serenity from Dragon that gives you Constitution to all saves instead.

[taltamir]

Yeah, not to mention having the larger amount of spells and the ability to cast...I dunno, Gate and Miracle several times per day. Granted, it's on the last level, though...

If the Favored Soul has bad casting, don't blame it on the fixed amount of spells; it requires the finesse of playing like a Sorcerer to work it appropriately.

its a level behind and goes from "every cleric/druid spell ever made" to "knows only 1 spell of its highest level" and its save DCs suck due to serious mad. And it doesn't even have a DMM battery (it gets no turning)

look, if you wanna argue about flavored soul, lets start another thread... lets keep this one about good classes with all good saves.

[tyckspoon]

Somebody will probably prove me wrong, but I don't think there are any- all good saves is something that usually only shows up as a consolation prize for a class that was considered weak in some aspect.

[taltamir]

Somebody will probably prove me wrong, but I don't think there are any- all good saves is something that usually only shows up as a consolation prize for a class that was considered weak in some aspect.

that has been my observation, hence the point of this thread.
I want to play a class with all good saves, but all of them are horribly crippled compared to other classes. It shouldn't be a consolation prize.

[Innis Cabal]

its a level behind and goes from "every cleric/druid spell ever made" to "knows only 1 spell of its highest level" and its save DCs suck due to serious mad. And it doesn't even have a DMM battery (it gets no turning)

look, if you wanna argue about flavored soul, lets start another thread... lets keep this one about good classes with all good saves.

Serious MAD? It has -two- required stats. Two. Not..say...all of them. You honestly didn't build it right it sounds. Favored Soul rocks most times if you know how to balance their two most important stats.

[Mando Knight]

Paladin starting second level, Charisma to all saves. Even better if you take Serenity from Dragon that gives you Constitution to all saves instead.

Or take Paladin 2 as a dip for a gish-y Sorcerer or Favored Soul build. Mmm... casting and super-saves. Costs you a significant delay in building up your own spellcasting, but will give you a bit to work with if the spells fail anyway.

[Draz74]

Honestly, the way to get a strong character with all good saves is "multiclassing." A Swordsage/Warblade, for example.

[Jallorn]

its over tiered. It suffers from all the drawbacks of sorcerer, PLUS its save DCs are based off of its wisdom while its spells known are based on its cha.
I tried building one once... i figured "hey, it can't be that bad"... the spells known made me cry...

granted, its better then a warrior, especially if you allow a lot of cheese and ban all tier 1 classes. but there is no reason to ever play one over a cleric or a druid or erudite etc..

You know, unless you like the flavor... you know, for your roleplaying? You do that, right?

Too sarcastic?

[Zaq]

Soul Eater, a PrC from BoVD, gets all good saves (and full BAB, too, I think). Of course, it's kind of crazy (whee, at-will negative levels with every touch! At level 1! That eventually becomes 2/touch!) and is pretty superbadevil, so it's not an option for most PCs in most games. That said, it still exists.

[taltamir]

You know, unless you like the flavor... you know, for your roleplaying? You do that, right?

Too sarcastic?

Hence I called it flavored soul... its all flavor and no crunch... also, you can play a cleric and CALL yourself a favored soul, especially if you share a flavored soul method of aquiring your clerical vestment.
remember, clerics are vested one of three ways:
1. Their god personally imbues them with clerical power (which he can later seal, but never take away... atonement can break the seal even if the original god did not forgive you)
2. An agent of a god (archeon, demon, etc) vests them with cleric power.
3. Another cleric vested them

Flavored souls gain their powers the same way as #1. And in game are indistinguishable from clerics with the exception that one is spont and one is prepared (And you can give some spontenuity to cleric and vice versa.)

Soul Eater, a PrC from BoVD, gets all good saves (and full BAB, too, I think). Of course, it's kind of crazy (whee, at-will negative levels with every touch! At level 1! That eventually becomes 2/touch!) and is pretty superbadevil, so it's not an option for most PCs in most games. That said, it still exists.

sounds awesome. i will look it up.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Unless I'm mistaken, Favored soul doesn't have an Ex-Favored soul section in its description, which could be taken to mean that a favored soul's spellcasting can't be "sealed" like a clerics can.

[T.G. Oskar]

its a level behind and goes from "every cleric/druid spell ever made" to "knows only 1 spell of its highest level" and its save DCs suck due to serious mad. And it doesn't even have a DMM battery (it gets no turning)

look, if you wanna argue about flavored soul, lets start another thread... lets keep this one about good classes with all good saves.

In order not to derail the thread and if you so desire, I might accept. The only point I have to explain is the following: it requires the finesse of a Sorcerer to work appropriately. The extent of what that means may be thread-appropriate.

However...

Somebody will probably prove me wrong, but I don't think there are any- all good saves is something that usually only shows up as a consolation prize for a class that was considered weak in some aspect.

that has been my observation, hence the point of this thread.
I want to play a class with all good saves, but all of them are horribly crippled compared to other classes. It shouldn't be a consolation prize.

This seems a bit biased. Yes, I understand and accept and quite probably agree with you that the Monk is not the best class and that it has some horrible flaws. I do not agree on your assessment of Favored Soul, and thus I cannot agree on this reasoning. However, explaining why would inevitably derail the thread, since it would require explaining why Favored Soul sucks or not.

[Penitent]

Dungeonomicon Monk.

[Fishy]

Dragonmarked Heir, Heir of Siberis, and Child of Khyber. Not brilliant, but better than monk.

[BenTheJester]

its a level behind and goes from "every cleric/druid spell ever made" to "knows only 1 spell of its highest level" and its save DCs suck due to serious mad. And it doesn't even have a DMM battery (it gets no turning)

look, if you wanna argue about flavored soul, lets start another thread... lets keep this one about good classes with all good saves.

So you're saying this class is weak, and you prove your point by comparing it to the 2 most powerful classes in 3.5 DnD? Yeah, that works.

[RagnaroksChosen]

the only two base classes that have all good stats are monk and favored soul.

[lsfreak]

its a level behind and goes from "every cleric/druid spell ever made" to "knows only 1 spell of its highest level"

Just fyi, it knows 3 of its highest-level spells at all times.

[dspeyer]

Hence I called it flavored soul... its all flavor and no crunch...

Flavor? What flavor?

Weapon Specialization? Energy Resistance? What do these have to do with being chosen by a deity?

And it doesn't change at all based on what deity chose you, except for the weapon, the style of your wings and your DR. The only difference between a FS of Gruumsh and one of Tritheleon is the wings. And they work equally well. Sure, you could pick thematic spells, but mostly you're likely to pick useful spells.

For the OP, check out dragon or outsider hit dice.

[Optimystik]

Or take Paladin 2 as a dip for a gish-y Sorcerer or Favored Soul build. Mmm... casting and super-saves. Costs you a significant delay in building up your own spellcasting, but will give you a bit to work with if the spells fail anyway.

Do Prestige Paladin 2 instead - you only lose 1 level of casting instead of 2, get all paladin spells added to your FS class list, and get Heavy Armor and MW Proficiencies.

If you keep it to 1 level, you lose no casting at all - though you also miss out on Divine Grace.

Unless I'm mistaken, Favored soul doesn't have an Ex-Favored soul section in its description, which could be taken to mean that a favored soul's spellcasting can't be "sealed" like a clerics can.

Indeed it can't. The deity for an FS is seen as more of a catalyst for internal power than an external source.

@ taltamir - FS is tier 2, MAD or not. The Cleric list is that good.

"Note that the Tier 2 classes are often less flexible than Tier 3 classes... it's just that their incredible potential power overwhelms their lack in flexibility."

[AmberVael]

Even if Favored Soul isn't Tier 2, that puts it at Tier 3 instead. And Tier 3 really isn't bad at all. The newer caster classes, Factotum, the ToB classes... those are all Tier 3.

Favored Soul is a decent class. Not the best, but it definitely qualifies as "good."

[Volkov]

Gestalt dragon hit dice and a tier one class such as druid. And dodge all the books that will be thrown at you for using a wizard with all good saves, full bab, 6 base skill points per level and d12 hit dice.

[Murdim]

If you consider the Favored Soul to be too "underpowered" for your taste... then I can only redirect you towards the well-known, balanced, yet curiously unpopular Lightning Warrior class. It has all three good saves as well as high BAB and full casting, but with some big, challenging, flavorful drawbacks.

Spoiler

Show

Class Skills
The Lightning Warrior’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level
(6 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
6 + Int modifier.


Lightning Warrior
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special

1st +1 +2 +2 +2 Bonus feat, Two-Weapon Mastery
2nd +2 +3 +3 +3
3rd +3 +3 +3 +3
4th +4 +4 +4 +4
5th +5 +4 +4 +4 Bonus feat
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 Improved Two-Weapon Mastery
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +5
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +6
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +6
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +7 Bonus feat
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +7 Greater Two-Weapon Mastery
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +8
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +8
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +9
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +9 Bonus feat
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +10 Perfect Two-Weapon Mastery
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +11
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +11
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 Bonus feat



Spells Per Day
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 5 3 — — — — — — — —
2nd 6 4 — — — — — — — —
3rd 6 4 3 — — — — — — —
4th 6 5 4 — — — — — — —
5th 6 5 4 3 — — — — — —
6th 6 5 5 4 — — — — — —
7th 6 6 5 4 3 — — — — —
8th 6 6 5 5 4 — — — — —
9th 6 6 6 5 4 3 — — — —
10th 6 6 6 5 5 4 — — — —
11th 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 — — —
12th 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 — — —
13th 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 — —
14th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 — —
15th 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 —
16th 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 —
17th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3
18th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4
19th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5
20th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6


Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Lightning Warrior.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Lightning Warriors are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor.

A Lightning Warrior can cast spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, a Lightning Warrior wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A Lightning Warrior still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

In addition, the Lightning Warrior may perform a spell with a somatic and/or material component even while holding a weapon in each hand. Casting a spell in this way still provokes an attack of opportunity. The Lightning Warrior can deliver a touch spell through a weapon attack (either a melee touch attack or a normal melee attack).

Spells
A lightning warrior casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A lightning warrior must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the lightning warrior must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a lightning warrior’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the lightning warrior’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a lightning warrior can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Lightning warrior. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a lightning warrior may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying. While studying, the lightning warrior decides which spells to prepare.

A lightning warrior begins play with all 0-level lightning warrior spells plus six 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the Lightning warrior has, he receives two additional 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new lightning warrior level, he gains four new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast.

Unlike the wizard, the Lightning Warrior does not need to use a spellbook, he simply memorizes his spells. The Lightning Warrior can learn spells from scrolls in the same manner wizards do, but do not need to spend money copying the scroll, as he simply looks at it and memorizes it.


Bonus Feats
At 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a Lightning Warrior gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, he can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or a fighter feat. The lightning warrior must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The lightning warrior is not limited to the categories of item creation feats, metamagic feats, or fighter feats when choosing these feats.

Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense feats as bonus feats at 1st level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for them.

Improved Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) feats as bonus feats 6th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for them.

Greater Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) feats as bonus feats at 11th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for it.

Perfect Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feat (complete warrior) as a bonus feat at 16th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for it.


At first glance, the lightning warrior looks like a weaker version of the wizard, due to the fact that it lacks a familiar and can’t specialize in a school like most wizards can. However, the special abilities and increased stats of the class help it catch up to the wizard somewhat, though it will probably continue to lag behind it. Trained in the arts of war, the Lightning Warrior has a bit more hp than a normal wizard, and can fight with two swords in order to offset his loss of his familiar. He gets a couple more spells to offset his lack of ability to specialize in a school of magic.

This is a class which truly sacrifices power for flavor.

[Optimystik]

Nothing is requiring the FS to pick spells that rely on a save. Just focus on Cha and clog the battlefield with summons/control while tossing out no-save-just-sucks, buffs, dispels/counterspells and healing.

[Soonerdj]

Paladin starting second level, Charisma to all saves. Even better if you take Serenity from Dragon that gives you Constitution to all saves instead.

Wait it's constitution? I need to talk to one of my players then.

[Kylarra]

Wait it's constitution? I need to talk to one of my players then.

Uh no. Serenity is wisdom.

[RagnaroksChosen]

If you consider the Favored Soul to be too "underpowered" for your taste... then I can only redirect you towards the well-known, balanced, yet curiously unpopular Lightning Warrior class. It has all three good saves as well as high BAB and full casting, but with some big, challenging, flavorful drawbacks.

Spoiler

Show

Class Skills
The Lightning Warrior’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level
(6 + Int modifier) ×4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level
6 + Int modifier.


Lightning Warrior
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special

1st +1 +2 +2 +2 Bonus feat, Two-Weapon Mastery
2nd +2 +3 +3 +3
3rd +3 +3 +3 +3
4th +4 +4 +4 +4
5th +5 +4 +4 +4 Bonus feat
6th +6/+1 +5 +5 +5 Improved Two-Weapon Mastery
7th +7/+2 +5 +5 +5
8th +8/+3 +6 +6 +6
9th +9/+4 +6 +6 +6
10th +10/+5 +7 +7 +7 Bonus feat
11th +11/+6/+1 +7 +7 +7 Greater Two-Weapon Mastery
12th +12/+7/+2 +8 +8 +8
13th +13/+8/+3 +8 +8 +8
14th +14/+9/+4 +9 +9 +9
15th +15/+10/+5 +9 +9 +9 Bonus feat
16th +16/+11/+6/+1 +10 +10 +10 Perfect Two-Weapon Mastery
17th +17/+12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +10
18th +18/+13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +11
19th +19/+14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +11
20th +20/+15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +12 Bonus feat



Spells Per Day
Level 0 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th
1st 5 3 — — — — — — — —
2nd 6 4 — — — — — — — —
3rd 6 4 3 — — — — — — —
4th 6 5 4 — — — — — — —
5th 6 5 4 3 — — — — — —
6th 6 5 5 4 — — — — — —
7th 6 6 5 4 3 — — — — —
8th 6 6 5 5 4 — — — — —
9th 6 6 6 5 4 3 — — — —
10th 6 6 6 5 5 4 — — — —
11th 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 — — —
12th 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 — — —
13th 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 — —
14th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 — —
15th 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3 —
16th 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4 —
17th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 4 3
18th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5 4
19th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 5 5
20th 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6 6


Class Features
All of the following are class features of the Lightning Warrior.


Weapon and Armor Proficiency
Lightning Warriors are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, and with light armor.

A Lightning Warrior can cast spells while wearing light armor without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. However, like any other arcane spellcaster, a Lightning Warrior wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component (most do). A Lightning Warrior still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.

In addition, the Lightning Warrior may perform a spell with a somatic and/or material component even while holding a weapon in each hand. Casting a spell in this way still provokes an attack of opportunity. The Lightning Warrior can deliver a touch spell through a weapon attack (either a melee touch attack or a normal melee attack).

Spells
A lightning warrior casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. A lightning warrior must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time (see below).

To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the lightning warrior must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a lightning warrior’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the lightning warrior’s Intelligence modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a lightning warrior can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: The Lightning warrior. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Intelligence score.

Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a lightning warrior may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare her spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying. While studying, the lightning warrior decides which spells to prepare.

A lightning warrior begins play with all 0-level lightning warrior spells plus six 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the Lightning warrior has, he receives two additional 1st-level spells of your choice. At each new lightning warrior level, he gains four new spells of any spell level or levels that he can cast.

Unlike the wizard, the Lightning Warrior does not need to use a spellbook, he simply memorizes his spells. The Lightning Warrior can learn spells from scrolls in the same manner wizards do, but do not need to spend money copying the scroll, as he simply looks at it and memorizes it.


Bonus Feats
At 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, a Lightning Warrior gains a bonus feat. At each such opportunity, he can choose a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, or a fighter feat. The lightning warrior must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including caster level minimums.
These bonus feats are in addition to the feat that a character of any class gets from advancing levels. The lightning warrior is not limited to the categories of item creation feats, metamagic feats, or fighter feats when choosing these feats.

Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Two-Weapon Fighting and Two-Weapon Defense feats as bonus feats at 1st level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for them.

Improved Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) feats as bonus feats 6th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for them.

Greater Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Greater Two-Weapon Fighting and Greater Two-Weapon Defense (Complete Warrior) feats as bonus feats at 11th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for it.

Perfect Two-Weapon Mastery
A Lightning Warrior receives the Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting feat (complete warrior) as a bonus feat at 16th level, even if he doesn’t meet the prerequisites for it.


At first glance, the lightning warrior looks like a weaker version of the wizard, due to the fact that it lacks a familiar and can’t specialize in a school like most wizards can. However, the special abilities and increased stats of the class help it catch up to the wizard somewhat, though it will probably continue to lag behind it. Trained in the arts of war, the Lightning Warrior has a bit more hp than a normal wizard, and can fight with two swords in order to offset his loss of his familiar. He gets a couple more spells to offset his lack of ability to specialize in a school of magic.

This is a class which truly sacrifices power for flavor.

i realy think the lack of familar hurts that class to much.