[3.5 ToB] Swapping Schools

[Koury]

Crusader
Must keep Devoted Spirit.
Can swap any other available school for any school except Desert Wind and Iron Heart.

Swordsage
Must keep Desert Wind.
Can swap any other available school for any school except Devoted Spirit and Iron Heart.

Warblade
Must keep Iron Heart.
Can swap any other available school for any school except Devoted Spirit and Desert Wind.

~*~*~

This is something I'm considering using in game. Why can't a Crusader of Olidammara use Shadow Hand or a Swordsage lead a battle through White Raven or a Warblade know how to best counter enemies through Setting Sun? Associated skills are no longer class skills if you get rid of a school. Likewise, the associated skill of the new school you take on becomes a class skill.

So, thoughts?

[DragoonWraith]

Devoted Spirit is really the only one that's notably more powerful than the rest, and Desert Wind and Stone Dragon are the only ones arguably weaker than the rest. Letting the rest swap in and out probably will not affect balance in the slightest. Allowing a Swordsage to drop Desert Wind or anyone to drop Stone Dragon will slightly, but not massively, improve their power. Allowing non-Crusaders to get Devoted Spirit may potentially give them a fairly significant boost, I've heard, though I'm not familiar enough with the discipline to truly say.

[Koury]

Devoted Spirit still requires being a Crusader.

[AslanCross]

I think this is an overall cool idea.

The Crusader and Warblade have clear signature schools. The thing about the Swordsage is that they're deliberately kept diverse precisely because they're fluffed as collectors of lore who travel around and get bits and pieces of martial lore.

However, I think that if there's any school that should be Swordsage's signature, it's Setting Sun. It emphasizes clever positioning (even has a maneuver of that name) and being a lot stronger than you look (as opposed to the Warblade who is obviously skilled at bladework, and the Crusader who is divinely-empowered).

Mechanically, Swordsages get so many maneuvers that it they might just run out of maneuvers to take.

[Godskook]

Replace all instances of "Desert Wind" with "Shadow Hand", and it'll be a little better. Also, stone dragon is kinda the 'runt' discipline, so personally, I wouldn't allow anyone to switch that one either, since it probably isn't costing as much as they're gaining.

[Koury]

I went back and forth trying to decide if Swordsages kept Setting Sun or Desert Wind. I settled on Desert Wind because anyone should be able to use clever positioning, I believe.

As for shadow hand, I liked that that ended up being open to anyone, honestly.

[AslanCross]

Hmm. Considering that Desert Wind and Shadow Hand both have (Su) maneuvers, I think you could choose on or the other, but both are unique to Swordsage.

You could even fluff it so that they're opposites: One is reckless and uses brilliant light; the other is cautious and uses darkness.

I know this eats into the "Crusader of Olidammara" concept, but oh well. I still think the Swordsage should have the monopoly on the (Su) maneuvers.

[DragoonWraith]

Devoted Spirit still requires being a Crusader.

Sorry, I didn't make that clear - I was commenting on the viability of the idea in general from a purely mechanical standpoint, not considering your proposed solution (I'm an engineer, the first thing we're trained to do is throw out proposed solutions) or the fluff considerations, just purely what does and does not affect balance. I figured that would be helpful information to know.

On the other hand, since I didn't explain what I was doing, it probably wasn't that helpful.

[Koury]

Ha, it's all good. And my reply sounds more curt then I'd like it to. Hard to type with inflection and all that.

[Boci]

Devoted Spirit is really the only one that's notably more powerful than the rest

Isn't diamond mind the strongest, followed by devoted spirit then iron heart?

[lsfreak]

Isn't diamond mind the strongest, followed by devoted spirit then iron heart?

There was a thread some months ago about the power of the disciplines. I don't remember for sure, but I think it was something like:
Devoted Spirit
Diamond Mind/White Raven/Tiger Claw
Iron Heart/Setting Sun/Shadow Hand
Desert Wind/Stone Dragon

@OP:
I'd tend to go with what different classes can't take, rather with what they must, and even then I probably wouldn't limit it. Take into consideration the power level of the discipline too - no dropping Desert Wind for Devoted Spirit or White Raven, but you could drop both Stone Dragon and Desert Wind for one of those.

[FMArthur]

As much as I would love a Warblade with it, giving other adepts Shadow Hand would be the last straw in making Swordsage the weakest martial adept 100% of the time. Desert Wind and Setting Sun are also Swordsage exclusive, but the unique concealment and teleportation options available through Shadow Hand are unique and irreplacable in a way that others are not; I would put Shadow Hand on every martial adept I made under your system, no question.

What about making the 'primary' disciplines like Devoted Spirit, Iron Heart and Shadow Hand cost two disciplines? And maybe make them worth that much to trade for others? A point-cost system based on a ranking of the disciplines from best to worst would be best but may be needlessly complicated.

[Tackyhillbillu]

Desert Wind is actually a pretty powerful school, up until everything in the game has Fire Resistance or Immunity.

[Koury]

Are concealment and mobility bad for melee?

I'd like to avoid anything more complicated then 1:1 trading. Overall, the effect is a bit of a power boost? Crusaders drop SD and pick up SH or DM or, if they dual wield, they also drop WR for TC.

Swordsages only gain access to WR, which I don't know why they lack in the first place.

Warblades gain access to some (Su). That doesn't seem like the end of the world to me.

Overall, no one has said anything leading me to believe this to be more then a minor power boost (which is the case for anything which allows you to customize to your abilities). I'm cool with that.

[Boci]

Are concealment and mobility bad for melee?

I'd like to avoid anything more complicated then 1:1 trading. Overall, the effect is a bit of a power boost? Crusaders drop SD and pick up SH or DM or, if they dual wield, they also drop WR for TC.

Swordsages only gain access to WR, which I don't know why they lack in the first place.

Warblades gain access to some (Su). That doesn't seem like the end of the world to me.

Overall, no one has said anything leading me to believe this to be more then a minor power boost (which is the case for anything which allows you to customize to your abilities). I'm cool with that.

The problem is why would you play a swordsage now? Shadow hand was pretty much the reason. Now the others can get it too, which are you going to choose: the 3/4 BAB melee or the full one? I think shadow hand should be the swordsage only school.

[Eldariel]

The problem is why would you play a swordsage now? Shadow hand was pretty much the reason. Now the others can get it too, which are you going to choose: the 3/4 BAB melee or the full one? I think shadow hand should be the swordsage only school.

SS also gets an ungodly amount of maneuvers known and readied, making them by far the most versatile offensively and defensively of the bunch. They also get Wis to AC + armor giving them the highest potential armor class of the 3, and they can use Wis to damage and otherwise just be more SAD than the others. Oh, and more skill points, a very decent capstone and access to simply larger number of schools, no matter which.

No, there are plenty of reasons to play an SS even if others have access to Shadow Hand. Hell, Shadow Hand isn't THAT impressive; best SS school is probably Diamond Mind anyways. And Tiger Claw and Setting Sun are quite strong too. Point being, I don't see losing exclusivity of Shadow Hand really hurting SSs much at all. On the contrary, gaining White Raven is a huge boon for them. Who really misses some bloody Stone Dragon?


But if you really consider that an issue, make SH the exclusive SS school over DW. Given DW is eminently agreed upon to be comparatively rather weak, seems straight-forward enough.

[Tinydwarfman]

SS also gets an ungodly amount of maneuvers known and readied, making them by far the most versatile offensively and defensively of the bunch. They also get Wis to AC + armor giving them the highest potential armor class of the 3, and they can use Wis to damage and otherwise just be more SAD than the others. Oh, and more skill points, a very decent capstone and access to simply larger number of schools, no matter which.

No, there are plenty of reasons to play an SS even if others have access to Shadow Hand. Hell, Shadow Hand isn't THAT impressive; best SS school is probably Diamond Mind anyways. And Tiger Claw and Setting Sun are quite strong too. Point being, I don't see losing exclusivity of Shadow Hand really hurting SSs much at all. On the contrary, gaining White Raven is a huge boon for them. Who really misses some bloody Stone Dragon?


But if you really consider that an issue, make SH the exclusive SS school over DW. Given DW is eminently agreed upon to be comparatively rather weak, seems straight-forward enough.

I find that while Shadow Hand may not be very offensively strong, it is great for both versatility, movement and defense. (also IMO they have the best stances) I think that both it and desert wind should be swordsage specific, as they are both the most overtly supernatural and SH just feels so right for a swordsage (more stealth and versatility focused)

[Koury]

So should SS's signature school, as it were, be Desert Wind, Setting Sun or Shadow Hand.

In terms of built in fluff?
In terms of balance?

Remember, the school that is their signature school is unavailable to Crusaders and Warblades.

[Godskook]

So should SS's signature school, as it were, be Desert Wind, Setting Sun or Shadow Hand.

In terms of built in fluff?
In terms of balance?

Remember, the school that is their signature school is unavailable to Crusaders and Warblades.

In terms of fluff, all 3 should be 'unique' to swordsage. Saying in terms of balance that only Shadow Hand is 'unique' is a compromise from my view.

[Draz74]

All I know is, I loves me some Warblade with Setting Sun. I'm willing to do all kinds of feat-spending, dipping, and PrCing to get it already. I wouldn't mind being able to do it just by swapping out another discipline.

(And I don't think it really violates anything fluff-wise either.)

EDIT: If you make all 3 Swordsage Disciplines unique to Swordsages, then here's all the "swaps" that this variant actually allows:

• Crusaders can pick up Diamond Mind or Tiger Claw
• Swordsages can pick up White Raven

[DragoonWraith]

SS also gets an ungodly amount of maneuvers known and readied, making them by far the most versatile offensively and defensively of the bunch.

Yes, they get many more maneuvers known and readied than the rest. But they also have by far the worst recovery method of the three (by far - I really cannot emphasize this enough), and I'm unconvinced that it really offers that much versatility, really. Most of the time both the Warblade and Crusader will be plenty fine on versatility. Really, the trick the Swordsage can pull that they can't is the things Shadow Hand gives him.

They also get Wis to AC + armor giving them the highest potential armor class of the 3,

AC's not really that important, though.

and they can use Wis to damage and otherwise just be more SAD than the others.

How so? The Wis thing adds an ability for them to be decent, it doesn't remove one. The Warblade gets some bonuses for a decent Int, but it's by no means mandatory, and the Crusader doesn't even have that to worry about - both could be just fine with dumping everything but Str and Con. The Swordsage can't.

Oh, and more skill points, a very decent capstone and access to simply larger number of schools, no matter which.

Skill points are true, though the Crusader and Warblade are at least decent with those, for martial classes. Larger number of schools is not really that much of a bonus, with the way the prerequisites work out. And the capstone is solid, but not even half as good as the Warblade's.

No, there are plenty of reasons to play an SS even if others have access to Shadow Hand. Hell, Shadow Hand isn't THAT impressive; best SS school is probably Diamond Mind anyways. And Tiger Claw and Setting Sun are quite strong too. Point being, I don't see losing exclusivity of Shadow Hand really hurting SSs much at all. On the contrary, gaining White Raven is a huge boon for them. Who really misses some bloody Stone Dragon?

No one will miss Stone Dragon; I believe several people (myself included) have mentioned that. Diamond Mind might be the most powerful offensively, but the utility options in Shadow Hand just aren't available in other disciplines.

But if you really consider that an issue, make SH the exclusive SS school over DW. Given DW is eminently agreed upon to be comparatively rather weak, seems straight-forward enough.

This, I absolutely agree with.

[Draz74]

No one will miss Stone Dragon; I believe several people (myself included) have mentioned that.

Optimization-wise, this may be true; but for a lot of my ToB character concepts, Stone Dragon is very appropriate thematically and is highly prized.

[Eldariel]

Yes, they get many more maneuvers known and readied than the rest. But they also have by far the worst recovery method of the three (by far - I really cannot emphasize this enough), and I'm unconvinced that it really offers that much versatility, really. Most of the time both the Warblade and Crusader will be plenty fine on versatility. Really, the trick the Swordsage can pull that they can't is the things Shadow Hand gives him.

The thing is, with as many maneuvers as Swordsages have, they don't really need Recovery that much. They burn through a couple per turn and generally have enough gas to last them the whole combat. That and Adaptive Style helps quite a bit anyways.

AC's not really that important, though.

This depends on level, types of adversaries and the amount of trouble pumping it takes. Generally, the argument against AC is that it's too expensive to buff it to really relevant numbers to fight martial opponents with it. SS is quite a bit better off than your average class here.

How so? The Wis thing adds an ability for them to be decent, it doesn't remove one. The Warblade gets some bonuses for a decent Int, but it's by no means mandatory, and the Crusader doesn't even have that to worry about - both could be just fine with dumping everything but Str and Con. The Swordsage can't.

Str/Con-based SS is perfectly doable. You need Heavy Armor Prof (prolly from Crusader or Fighter), but you're fine that way; sure, you don't get Wis to AC or damage, but that's no less than anyone else gets.

That said, that's not what I was really going at. The point is, even without school exclusivity, SS's ability to go Wis-exclusive means there's plenty of reasons to play SSs. You said there wouldn't be a reason to play SS over Warblade or Crusader, I'm covering the cases where that's most definitely not true here.

[QUOTE=DragoonWraith;8061433Skill points are true, though the Crusader and Warblade are at least decent with those, for martial classes. Larger number of schools is not really that much of a bonus, with the way the prerequisites work out. And the capstone is solid, but not even half as good as the Warblade's.[/quote]

*shrug* 6 schools gives you automatic access to Master of the Nine. Also, many schools have great low-level dip maneuvers like Wall of Blades, White Raven Tactics, Flame's Blessing or Counter Charge, making access to them beneficial even if you don't actually pick anything much from there. And yeah, Warblade capstone is better, but SS one is plenty powerful too.

[QUOTE=DragoonWraith;8061433No one will miss Stone Dragon; I believe several people (myself included) have mentioned that. Diamond Mind might be the most powerful offensively, but the utility options in Shadow Hand just aren't available in other disciplines.[/quote]

Yeah, this is true but I've built plenty a Swordsages with just the Shadow Blink from Shadow Hand and don't feel them gimped. Let's remember that Stone Dragon isn't entirely useless either; it has Mountain Hammer-line along with Roots of the Mountain and such.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

First I don't think this is fair to swordsages schools are their thing. If you allow school swapping pick a currently swordsage only school (probably shadow hand) and make that inaccessable to Crusader and Warblade. Don't let Crusaders get IronHeart or warblades get Devoted spirit but allow swordsage to take either his inferior chasis is less capable of utilizing it anyway. If you want to keep something from swordsage disallow them from taking White Raven as they seem less inclined to team building.

As for the much maligned stone dragon I have something good to say about it. Generally Crusaders seem to go primarily DS with a smattering of WR while Warblades are primarily TC or IH with a side of WR(+Ironheart surge for the TC). Sword sages have several primary schools and secondary schools to pick from but it seems everyone cherry picks a manuever from Stone Dragon because it has decent high level manuevers with no prerequisites. Without Martial study or manuever granting items many characters won't qualify for a manuever of the highest level from a second school for Warblades and Crusaders, for swordsages it's less important but still another option for that second or third max level manuever.

Stone Dragon is to ToB what Fighter is to non-ToB mellee an appealing trap for new players and something to dip for the experienced optimizer. Eliminating it would hurt many strong characters a bit.

[DragoonWraith]

The thing is, with as many maneuvers as Swordsages have, they don't really need Recovery that much. They burn through a couple per turn and generally have enough gas to last them the whole combat. That and Adaptive Style helps quite a bit anyways.

Often, this is not actually the case. High level Swordsages can very definitely burn through all of their maneuvers. And even with Adaptive Style, if a combat ever reaches a point where a Swordsage must recover, he has been less powerful in that combat than a Warblade or Crusader would have been, by default. That's a pretty serious disadvantage.

This depends on level, types of adversaries and the amount of trouble pumping it takes. Generally, the argument against AC is that it's too expensive to buff it to really relevant numbers to fight martial opponents with it. SS is quite a bit better off than your average class here.

A bit but not enough.

Str/Con-based SS is perfectly doable. You need Heavy Armor Prof (prolly from Crusader or Fighter), but you're fine that way; sure, you don't get Wis to AC or damage, but that's no less than anyone else gets.

So another couple of tax feats, or you miss out on that capstone? Great deal.

That said, that's not what I was really going at. The point is, even without school exclusivity, SS's ability to go Wis-exclusive means there's plenty of reasons to play SSs. You said there wouldn't be a reason to play SS over Warblade or Crusader, I'm covering the cases where that's most definitely not true here.

I'm not understanding this? You mean someone who is already Wis-based could multiclass Swordsage? OK, that I'll buy. Still an unnecessary nerf to Swordsages.

*shrug* 6 schools gives you automatic access to Master of the Nine. Also, many schools have great low-level dip maneuvers like Wall of Blades, White Raven Tactics, Flame's Blessing or Counter Charge, making access to them beneficial even if you don't actually pick anything much from there. And yeah, Warblade capstone is better, but SS one is plenty powerful too.

Master of the Nine is incredibly painful to get into, despite being quite good. That's a lot of trash feats. Plus I'm pretty sure Mot9 works out better if you've multiclassed before you take it.

Yes, there are some good dip maneuvers. These are nice. But even a Swordsage is going to have a hard time readying all of them, because you still would prefer to use your higher level ones.

Yeah, this is true but I've built plenty a Swordsages with just the Shadow Blink from Shadow Hand and don't feel them gimped. Let's remember that Stone Dragon isn't entirely useless either; it has Mountain Hammer-line along with Roots of the Mountain and such.

I didn't really say they were gimped, I said this change makes them strictly inferior to Crusaders and Warblades (which they arguably already were, but now there's very little argument about it), and removes the one thing they could do that the others couldn't, which was the Concealment and Teleport tricks that Shadow Hand offers.

Optimization-wise, this may be true; but for a lot of my ToB character concepts, Stone Dragon is very appropriate thematically and is highly prized.

Really? I never found it to be. If I ever get a chance to make that Ironsoul Forgemaster//Deepstone Sentinel, maybe then, but at least thus far I've yet to make a Martial Adept that took any maneuvers from Stone Dragon, there never seemed any good reason to.

[Koury]

Under my proposed system, Swordsages GAIN versatility through access to White Raven (the only new school to them). Of course, this costs them access to another school, but balance wise, that seems right. Fluff wise, its easy to imagine a Swordsage who focuses less on hitting hard (Stone Dragon) or doesn't know any two-weapon fighting maneuvers (Tiger Claw) but is a better leader.

Warblades gain access to Shadow Hand and Setting Sun. If one drops Stone Dragon and gains Shadow Hand, he is now a more mobile, defensive fighter. If he picks up Setting Sun, he can now counter his enemies through being clever (and Int is their primary mental stat). To do these, he must still drop two other schools to do this.

Crusaders gain access to the most schools, but are still limited to three. Clever TWFing Crusader? Setting Sun, Tiger Claw and Devoted Spirit. Sneaky Crusader of Boccob? Diamond Mind, Shadow Hand and Devoted Spirit. He is more powerful because he is able to customize himself a bit, but so are the others.

I can certainly see the argument for Swordsages locked school being Setting Sun, and indeed I went back and forth betwen the two, but I feel that any warrior can be sneaky, mobile and defensive if thats how they train.

[Godskook]

I can certainly see the argument for Swordsages locked school being Setting Sun, and indeed I went back and forth betwen the two, but I feel that any warrior can be sneaky, mobile and defensive if thats how they train.

This is essentially a Class X fallacy, made arguing a different point.

Any warrior can also be iron-hearted, if they train that way, so why lock Swordsages and Crusaders out from the Iron Heart discipline?

Any warrior can be X, if the train that way, so why lock Swordsages and Warblades out from Devoted Spirit.

And it goes on.

[Koury]

I actually feel that way but want to preserve something and not just say Crusaders pick 3, Warblades pick 5 and Swordsages pick 6.

I agree that anyone can be devoted or iron hearted also.

[Godskook]

I actually feel that way but want to preserve something and not just say Crusaders pick 3, Warblades pick 5 and Swordsages pick 6.

I agree that anyone can be devoted or iron hearted also.

Except it isn't a valid argument.

Sinfire, can I start a head-desk count too?

[Koury]

Explain please? I'm clearly not connecting some obvious dots.