Vitality and Wound points

[crazedloon]

Has any one used this system.

If so what was your experience

[Thalnawr]

I play with a variant on this, and it's interesting, to say the least. Critical hits can be much more deadly, especially since we're using a complex critical table that allows for damage to specific body parts alongside this system.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you include the critical hit portion then it can certainly make that aspect of the game more deadly and exciting, otherwise it just means that PC's get a few extra HP and mooks only take one hit after about level 4 or so.

[AstralFire]

It was a poorly designed system in Star Wars RCR and d20 modern, the systems it was invented for. It's just a mess and not worth it in D&D 3.

[Draz74]

It's a cool idea and I'm in favor of developing it until it works. But there's little argument that the version of it in UA was "rushed" and does poorly at the details.

[crazedloon]

why exactly does it work poorly?

[Jarveiyan]

For 1 spells criting can easily kill(not accounting for the 2 dice or more weapons). I think it still more accurately approximates gritty real world mechanics.

[Draz74]

why exactly does it work poorly?

Yeah, Jarveian mentioned the single biggest problem -- one Scorching Ray can kill you no matter how high-level you are, if it just rolls a lucky 20 on its attack roll.

Nothing wrong with one-hit gritty death potential if that's the kind of game you like, but why can a Scorching Ray do this when a Fireball can't?

In general, the problem is that "critical hit = WP damage" just isn't what critical hits were designed to do, so the interaction goes poorly. Weapons with big threat ranges, like scimitars and falchions, now become ridiculously good compared to similar weapons with small threat ranges. Damage bonuses become way better than they already were -- especially ones like Power Attack or Craven, which can't be nerfed by the suggested (but not strongly stated) rule in the VP/WP rules, that bonus damage becomes 1 damage/d6. (Even with that nerf, Sneak Attack is also scary strong under these rules if the Rogue gets a crit. But I guess that doesn't actually bother me.)

And if you think Scorching Ray is incredible with this spell, don't get me started on the Orb spells. Allowing non-Core just multiplies all kinds of craziness in this system ...

Cure spells have all kinds of craziness in their math under this system ...

VP/WP is also poorly thought out when it comes to all the minor rules. Undead and other no-CON creatures having no VP, only WP, is functional, but unaesthetic. (Every damage-dealing hit against an undead actually harms its body physically?) Critical hits auto-overcoming DR is just silly. (As if crits weren't a big enough reward already.) No such thing as nonlethal damage anymore? Lame.

It's also just swingy. A couple lucky rolls can make fair combat end too quickly for my taste.

What I'd like to see in a VP/WP system (and have tried to do in my homebrew; check my sig for VP/Injury System):

• Combat still can't end so abruptly that it's anticlimactic, unless there are special factors like a surprise assassin attack
• All bonus damage is carefully controlled so that it doesn't produce one-hit kills
• The main thing that determines VP damage vs. "real" damage is your armor. Meanwhile, how hard you are to hit does not generally depend on your armor (but depends on your level, your shield, etc.).
• Nonlethal damage is just normal damage, but can't kill you once you're out of VP.
• Strength and Constitution are both important in both offense and defense.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, Jarveian mentioned the single biggest problem -- one Scorching Ray can kill you no matter how high-level you are, if it just rolls a lucky 20 on its attack roll.

It's extremely unlikely actual death occurs due to reaching 0 WP only requiring successful Fort-save to survive (albeit Disabled). Dying to it is akin to triple 20 autokill.

In general, the problem is that "critical hit = WP damage" just isn't what critical hits were designed to do, so the interaction goes poorly. Weapons with big threat ranges, like scimitars and falchions, now become ridiculously good compared to similar weapons with small threat ranges.

The rules make all high multiplier weapons "trade" their multiplier into range instead. This means you have weapons with more damage and less crit, and less damage and more crit. It works out rather well, though spells are a mess of course.

[Mastikator]

I've used it. Only on low level mind you.

What happened was that everyone had between 2-3 times as many points of damage they could sustain before they went down. But it also meant that damage is a more long term problem, and that crits could always mean doom, no matter how many hitpoints you have.

So on low level, I'd say it's less gritty than not using the variant
But it does have a more realistic feel to it in my opinion. Honestly I'd combine it with E6 and use Armor Class as Damage Reduction any time I'd play D&D. I'd probably throw in some body-part-specific hit.


On a side note, I don't really see how it's really a bad thing that you can die from an unlucky stab by a two handed battle axe wielded by a raging barbarian orc.
Live by the sword, die early by the sword.

[Draz74]

The rules make all high multiplier weapons "trade" their multiplier into range instead. This means you have weapons with more damage and less crit, and less damage and more crit. It works out rather well, though spells are a mess of course.

... I used to know that. Back before I gave up on the default VP/WP system and started working on my own ...

Though, still, I think this makes some weapons rather useless.

[crazedloon]

some thoughts.

-sneak attack (and variants) do 1 wound point per die when dealing crits (instead of their normal damage) or should this even be changed to all attacks (does that make sneak attack characters to strong?)
-I am running armor as DR but allow Armor DR to effect crit hits (not normal Dr though)

?

[Draz74]

Oh, one thing I like doing when using VP/WP is making base damage (and maybe some other damage sources, like Strength bonus) affect WP on a crit, but having most other damage (including sneak attack, Power Attack, spells) still affect VP.

Who says a critical hit can't also hurt your VP score, after all?

[Vilyathas]

My experiences running with these rules in my campaigns:

Damage from critical hits are divided among Vitality and Wounds equally. Still deadly for higher level spells, though. That's why I still roll out of my players' sight, so I can fudge whenever I'm about to kill someone by luck of the dice.

Cure spells heals Vitality as HP, and additionally 1 Wound per d8. Wounds are also healed as ability damage via Restoration spells. This slows down my players progress significantly, but not to ridiculous levels so far.

Armor as DR? Can be overpowered for the PCs if not done properly. If you substitute AC for DR in a 1:1 basis, it means that lower level encounters would be a walkover for the players, as I found that out the hard way. Throwing monsters with higher damage output does not work, as you'll have to be careful not to kill your players outright. I recommend DR 1/- for light armor, DR 2/- for medium, and DR 4/- for heavy armor. How you rule enhancement bonuses to your armor is another thing altogether.

As for Sneak Attacks to deal Wounds, I think that applying Sneak Attack damage to every attack per round is a bit too much. Have Sneak Attack be a full-round action instead.