Counterspell Build

[dobu]

Hello, fellow playgrounders!

I'd like to build some arcane counterspeller. We all know of the unearthly good feat "Divine Defiance" from FC2. How could a Wizard get this without losing too many casterlevel, or dipping into Cleric?
Turn Undead is easily obtained with sacred exorcist. but divine casterlevel 3 is giving me headaches...

What else, besides Master Specialist (abjuration), elfen spell lore and improved counterspell, would you recommend?

[taltamir]

well... the classic and probably on of the best "counterspell" method is to use direct damage. Specifically, orb of X with lots of metamagic.
instead of ready action to counterspell, you ready action to cast the spell.

an interesting method is via warlock. he might be able to use his dispell magic SLA to counterspell via dispel magic (not sure if this is legit because normally SLA cannot be used that way).

A more classic build is to take a ton of feats that improve counterspelling...
archmage has the following ability you can choose

Mastery of Counterspelling
When the archmage counterspells a spell, it is turned back upon the caster as if it were fully affected by a spell turning spell. If the spell cannot be affected by spell turning, then it is merely counterspelled. This ability costs one 7th-level spell slot.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/archmage.htm

Improved counterspell (printed in epic handbook, PHB, and forgotten realms campaign setting with identical text):
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#...edCounterspell

When counterspelling, you may use a spell of the same school that is one or more spell levels higher than the target spell.

There is also a feat in magic of faerun page 22 called reactive counterspell that lets you counterspell once per round without having readied an action. It replaces your normal action for that round. requires improved counterspell and improved initiative.
In players guide to farun page 42 it has a feat of the same name which does the same only you lose your NEXT turn instead of current turn.

PHB2 page 78 has dampen spell

You can use an immediate action to attempt to dampen an enemy’s spell. As with counterspelling, you must identify the target spell as it is being cast. If you successfully identify it, you can expend any spell or spell slot to dampen your opponent’s incantation. Because of your hasty, immediate casting, you do not fully counter the target spell. Instead, you subtract the level of the spell or spell slot you expend from the save DC of your opponent’s spell.

[Eldariel]

Hello, fellow playgrounders!

I'd like to build some arcane counterspeller. We all know of the unearthly good feat "Divine Defiance" from FC2. How could a Wizard get this without losing too many casterlevel, or dipping into Cleric?
Turn Undead is easily obtained with sacred exorcist. but divine casterlevel 3 is giving me headaches...

What else, besides Master Specialist (abjuration), elfen spell lore and improved counterspell, would you recommend?

Cleric 1 is the easiest way to go. Krau-sigil Illumian gets you +2 to all CLs in spellcasting classes up to your maximum level, so you end up with level 3 divine caster level and full arcane caster level. Further, you get Inquisition-domain for free which is another +4 Dispelling (untyped) and can get some opposed check-domain or just extra turning or improved initiative or such.

Use Precocious Apprentice to enter Master Specialist on level 4 anyways and you can have:
Cloistered Cleric 1/Abjurer 1/Master Specialist: Abjurer 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 1 (pick either Mastery of Counterspelling or Arcane Reach; Arcane Reach + Master Abjurer 10 is great too, but for a Counterspeller, Mastery of Counterspelling is nice)

[Runestar]

You may also want to look at duelward, a 5th lv spell from spell compendium. Lets you counterspell as an immediate action (but discharges it, so may get expensive fast).

This lets you go about your normal wizard duties without having to ready actions for counterspelling.

[PhoenixRivers]

I prefer: Wizard 3 / Master Specialist (Abjurer) 10 / IotSV 5 / Archmage 2

You get all the goodies, can pick up planar touchstone for Inquisition domain, and still get all the Dispel/counterspell power.

[Ernir]

Try to get your hands on a Ring of Spell-Battle (Magic Item Compendium) and/or Battlemagic Perception (Heroes of Battle, 3rd level Sor/Wiz spell). Both increase your abilities to notice/counter the spells cast around you, and allow you to counterspell without readying. The spell even allows doing it as a free (not immediate) action.

If you want to go off the beaten path a bit, there's the Noctumancer PrC in ToM. Dual-progressing for arcane spells and mysteries, and all the class features are dispelling or spell disruption focused.

Use Precocious Apprentice to enter Master Specialist on level 4 anyways and you can have:
Cloistered Cleric 1/Abjurer 1/Master Specialist: Abjurer 10/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Archmage 1 (pick either Mastery of Counterspelling or Arcane Reach; Arcane Reach + Master Abjurer 10 is great too, but for a Counterspeller, Mastery of Counterspelling is nice)

Hmm, in the long run, I'd prefer to use the Improved Sigil: Krau feat to get into MS on time, since you're a Krau-sigil Illumian anyway. Better lasting benefits than from PA, IMO.

I prefer: Wizard 3 / Master Specialist (Abjurer) 10 / IotSV 5 / Archmage 2

You get all the goodies, can pick up planar touchstone for Inquisition domain, and still get all the Dispel/counterspell power.

Doesn't get you Divne CL 3, though, so no Divine Defiance that way. =/

[RagnaroksChosen]

I can't find it but i believe there was a handbook on the best ways to counter-spell.

[Eldariel]

I can't find it but i believe there was a handbook on the best ways to counter-spell.

This Compilation is what you're thinking of, probably. For what it's worth, most of the relevant stuff from there is already covered here.

Hmm, in the long run, I'd prefer to use the Improved Sigil: Krau feat to get into MS on time, since you're a Krau-sigil Illumian anyway. Better lasting benefits than from PA, IMO.

Hm, agreed. I mentioned PA as a more generic option for non-Illumians (Practiced Spellcaster can get you Divine Defiance anyways).

[Crow]

Sorcerer with heighten spell and improved counterspell. Then use Greater Dispel with a bunch of CL-boosters.

Direct damage can be a pain because enemy spellcasters are likely to use the same defenses that you would use to avoid direct damage.

[Slayn82]

I agree that Sorcerer is probably the best class for a Counterspell focused characther, specially with heighten spell.

As a note, Guild Wizard of Waterdeep (Magic of Faerun) is a excelent PrC for such characther.

1. Spellpool - excelent for Sorcerers, good for Wizards. AKA The torrent of Magic.
2. Bonnus Item Creation Feat
3. Improved Counterspell
4. full casting
5. The requisites are very friendly, solid choices.

Archmage's mastery of counterspelling best use is just to debuff enemies with their own dispell magic spells. Just having you around makes battles MUCH more interesting.

[dobu]

thanks for all the help :-)

it will be a
cloistered cleric 1/abjurer 3/master specialist 10/abjurant champion 5/Archmage 1

abjurant champion is for the swift action dispel magic (and other goodness)

:-)

[The Random NPC]

Noctumancer from ToM is built around counterspelling, how well it does it, I don't know.
Edit: Ninja'd by Ernir... that's what I get for trying to think late at night/early in the morning.

[ApatheticDespot]

Noctumancer from ToM is built around counterspelling, how well it does it, I don't know.

If anyone's used the Noctumancer I'd be very interested to hear how it fared. I'm planning to introduce a Noctumancer Lich villain in a campaign I'm DMing, and I've never seen any of the Shadow Magic classes in play before.

[PhoenixRivers]

Doesn't get you Divne CL 3, though, so no Divine Defiance that way. =/

Don't need it. When your level 3 spells are capable of countering level 9 spells cast by someone 7 levels higher than you (at level 13), you're good.

[toddex]

Hello, fellow playgrounders!

I'd like to build some arcane counterspeller. We all know of the unearthly good feat "Divine Defiance" from FC2. How could a Wizard get this without losing too many casterlevel, or dipping into Cleric?
Turn Undead is easily obtained with sacred exorcist. but divine casterlevel 3 is giving me headaches...

What else, besides Master Specialist (abjuration), elfen spell lore and improved counterspell, would you recommend?

I have no idea what book FC2 is.

[PhoenixRivers]

I have no idea what book FC2 is.

Fiendish Codex 2

[magic9mushroom]

thanks for all the help :-)

it will be a
cloistered cleric 1/abjurer 3/master specialist 10/abjurant champion 5/Archmage 1

abjurant champion is for the swift action dispel magic (and other goodness)

:-)

Use the cheese, Luke!

Cloistered Cleric 1/Abjurer 1/Master Specialist 7/Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7/Master Specialist +3/Archmage 1.

Take Divine Defiance to get immediate action counterspells, and use Battlemagic Perception for a FREE action counterspell. The two in concert even let you counterspell SLAs!

[PhoenixRivers]

Don't forget Spellcaster's Bane. Nice little spell from the Complete Mage.

Gives +2 to dispel checks, and lets you make spellcraft checks to detect any spell within 60 feet that you have LoE to. Even words vs invisible casters, or casters that still and silent their spells. Very useful tool for counterspell builds.

[Eldariel]

thanks for all the help :-)

it will be a
cloistered cleric 1/abjurer 3/master specialist 10/abjurant champion 5/Archmage 1

abjurant champion is for the swift action dispel magic (and other goodness)

:-)

Abjurant Champion is hard to enter. Also, Swift Action Dispel Magic isn't good anymore on level 16; you need Greater Dispel Magic. I strongly suggest the Initiate-path suggested in my post. Or at the very least, take 4-5 levels of Archmage instead; Archmage has many great abilities for a Master Abjurer in Arcane Reach (x2), Mastery of Shaping, Mastery of Counterspelling and Spell Power. Heck, Spell-Like (on e.g. Greater Dispel Magic, Maw of Chaos or Time Stop) would also be fine.

[TaintedLight]

It seems like a specialist wizard would have a pretty hard time dealing with spells from his banned schools. How does the Abjurer/Master Abjurer/IotSfV/Archmage cope with an inflexible countering strategy (prepared spells) and the utter lack of two schools?

[PhoenixRivers]

It seems like a specialist wizard would have a pretty hard time dealing with spells from his banned schools. How does the Abjurer/Master Abjurer/IotSfV/Archmage cope with an inflexible countering strategy (prepared spells) and the utter lack of two schools?

Dispel Magic. A Master Specialist with the following loadout:

Abjurer 2/MS 10

Will get: +5 dispel from - Master Specialist
+2 dispel from - Spellcaster's Bane
+2 Dispel from - Dispelling Cord
+4 Dispel from - Inquisition domain (via Planar Touchstone)

The ability to take 10 from - Arcane Mastery.

Now, with the above, a level 3 dispel will get:

10(take 10) + 10 (CL) + 13 (above bonuses) = 33, or enough to dispel any spell up to CL 22... Yes, this means your level 3 dispel magic will stop a time stop. On top of that, everyone that's visible to you? you'll know when they're casting, what they're casting (Spellcaster's Bane is Awesome).

At level 12. By the time you hit CL 20 (Iot7V 7 / AcM 1), you'll be doing Greater dispels that will counterspell up to CL 32. The lack of schools isn't important at that stage. Have several dispels handy (ACM for Greater Dispel 4/day is great... you can't counter a SLA, so they can't negate your counterspells), and have fun.

[TaintedLight]

Dispel Magic. A Master Specialist with the following loadout:

Abjurer 2/MS 10

Will get: +5 dispel from - Master Specialist
+2 dispel from - Spellcaster's Bane
+2 Dispel from - Dispelling Cord
+4 Dispel from - Inquisition domain (via Planar Touchstone)

The ability to take 10 from - Arcane Mastery.

Now, with the above, a level 3 dispel will get:

10(take 10) + 10 (CL) + 13 (above bonuses) = 33, or enough to dispel any spell up to CL 22... Yes, this means your level 3 dispel magic will stop a time stop. On top of that, everyone that's visible to you? you'll know when they're casting, what they're casting (Spellcaster's Bane is Awesome).

At level 12. By the time you hit CL 20 (Iot7V 7 / AcM 1), you'll be doing Greater dispels that will counterspell up to CL 32. The lack of schools isn't important at that stage. Have several dispels handy (ACM for Greater Dispel 4/day is great... you can't counter a SLA, so they can't negate your counterspells), and have fun.

This seems quite solid, actually. Any suggestions on getting sound dispel checks at ECL 30? I've been tinkering with the idea of an epic shieldmage and I'd like to see this implemented somehow.

EDIT: Also, which Planar Touchstone does one need to get the domain?

[Keld Denar]

Catalogues of Enlightenment. Its on Mechanus somewhere, IIRC. That nets you any single domain's granted power. You need to buy a 250g Touchstone though, and you can't lose it.

If you do the Cloistered Cleric dip, though, you don't need Planar Touchstone. Pick up Inquisition, Purification, and Knowledge (bonus) as your domains. Purification gives a +1 CL for all Abjurations, and Dispel Magic is an Abjuration. Unfortunately, it is hit by the CL cap on Dispel Magic, but thats really only relevant for a few levels when you are CL capped.

[TaintedLight]

Catalogues of Enlightenment. Its on Mechanus somewhere, IIRC. That nets you any single domain's granted power. You need to buy a 250g Touchstone though, and you can't lose it.

If you do the Cloistered Cleric dip, though, you don't need Planar Touchstone. Pick up Inquisition, Purification, and Knowledge (bonus) as your domains. Purification gives a +1 CL for all Abjurations, and Dispel Magic is an Abjuration. Unfortunately, it is hit by the CL cap on Dispel Magic, but thats really only relevant for a few levels when you are CL capped.

Here's what I'm thinking thus far with all that in mind:

Spoiler

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{table=head]:Level|Class|CL|Feat
1|Abjurer|1|Sacred Vow, Vow of Poverty, Vow of Nonviolence
2|Abjurer|2|Vow of Peace
3|Abjurer|3|Spell Focus (Abjuration)
4|Master Abjurer|4|
5|Master Abjurer|5|
6|Master Abjurer|6|Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Greater Spell Focus (Abjuration)
7|Master Abjurer|7|
8|Master Abjurer|8|
9|Master Abjurer|9|Spell Focus (Transmutation)
10|Master Abjurer|10|
11|Master Abjurer|11|
12|Master Abjurer|12|Improved Initiative
13|Master Abjurer|13|
14|IotSfV|14|
15|IotSfV|15|Combat Reflexes
16|IotSfV|16|
17|IotSfV|17|
18|IotSfV|18|Improved Counterspell
19|IotSfV|19|
20|IotSfV|20|
21|Archmage|21|Quicken Spell
22|Archmage|22|
23|Archmage|23|
24|Archmage|24|Reactive Counterspell
25|Archmage|25|
26|Abjurer|26|
27|Abjurer|27|Epic Counterspell
28|Abjurer|28|
29|Abjurer|29|
30|Abjurer|30|Planar Touchstone
[/table]

Yes, I realize Vow of Poverty is crap. Yes, I am taking it anyways. With the knowledge that this character is required to have all of the vows listed and the feats up to and including Epic Counterspell, and ignoring the fact that Poverty disallows the ownership of a touchstone, what else do you recommend doing?

[PhoenixRivers]

Catalogues of Enlightenment. Its on Mechanus somewhere, IIRC. That nets you any single domain's granted power. You need to buy a 250g Touchstone though, and you can't lose it.

If you do the Cloistered Cleric dip, though, you don't need Planar Touchstone. Pick up Inquisition, Purification, and Knowledge (bonus) as your domains. Purification gives a +1 CL for all Abjurations, and Dispel Magic is an Abjuration. Unfortunately, it is hit by the CL cap on Dispel Magic, but thats really only relevant for a few levels when you are CL capped.

For this build, it'd be:

Spoiler

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Wiz 1 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Master Specialist 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 / Archmage 1

Sanctum spell gives you Level 2 spells to enter Master specialist, and from there, you can go for broke. You'll get new wizard spells 1 level later, meaning you won't be dispelling before level 6, but you'll still have the same checks at level 12 and level 20, though you'll have a couple less wizard spells per day. (cast as wizard 19 instead of 20).

For real cheese?

Wizard 2 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Master Specialist 5 / Archmage 2

You'll have casting as a wizard 19, as a cleric 11 (9th arcane, 6th divine), with caster level 19 and 15 (20 and 16 for dispels), giving you dispels on BOTH sides. You'll qualify for all the Divine Defiance (if books allow) you can handle, as well as the wizard dispel boosters.

You lose Iot7V, and a bit of the Master Specialist checks, but if you have a domain with dispel, you can get domain spontanaeity, and burn turn attempts to spontaneously dispel.

EDIT: On Vow of Poverty: Reroll. You can't have a spell component pouch, which kinda turns off your spellcasting. You can't have valuable components and focuses. No contingency. No True Seeing.

In other words, vow of poverty doesn't just eat your WBL. It nerfs your casting.

[TaintedLight]

For this build, it'd be:

Spoiler

Show

Wiz 1 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Master Specialist 10 / Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil 7 / Archmage 1

Sanctum spell gives you Level 2 spells to enter Master specialist, and from there, you can go for broke. You'll get new wizard spells 1 level later, meaning you won't be dispelling before level 6, but you'll still have the same checks at level 12 and level 20, though you'll have a couple less wizard spells per day. (cast as wizard 19 instead of 20).

For real cheese?

Wizard 2 / Cloistered Cleric 1 / Mystic Theurge 10 / Master Specialist 5 / Archmage 2

You'll have casting as a wizard 19, as a cleric 11 (9th arcane, 6th divine), with caster level 19 and 15 (20 and 16 for dispels), giving you dispels on BOTH sides. You'll qualify for all the Divine Defiance (if books allow) you can handle, as well as the wizard dispel boosters.

You lose Iot7V, and a bit of the Master Specialist checks, but if you have a domain with dispel, you can get domain spontanaeity, and burn turn attempts to spontaneously dispel.

EDIT: On Vow of Poverty: Reroll. You can't have a spell component pouch, which kinda turns off your spellcasting. You can't have valuable components and focuses. No contingency. No True Seeing.

In other words, vow of poverty doesn't just eat your WBL. It nerfs your casting.

Spell component pouches are a specific exception in the text of the feat and at 18th level you get true seeing as a constant free effect. Trust me, it is not going to be a problem. I already talked with the DM about this :D.

EDIT: Also, DM says that for a 30th level game gold piece costs for components for most any spell are unimportant.

[PhoenixRivers]

Spell component pouches are a specific exception in the text of the feat and at 18th level you get true seeing as a constant free effect. Trust me, it is not going to be a problem. I already talked with the DM about this :D.

That still leaves out any expensive components, and there are a lot more than True Seeing.

I suppose you could research an epic spell that obviated material components less than X amount... but that would cost gold to research.

[TaintedLight]

That still leaves out any expensive components, and there are a lot more than True Seeing.

I suppose you could research an epic spell that obviated material components less than X amount... but that would cost gold to research.

If it will calm the nerves any, just pretend this is a modified version of the feat that doesn't screw my ability to contribute at all by taking it. Components are not an issue. Does that help?

[PhoenixRivers]

If it will calm the nerves any, just pretend this is a modified version of the feat that doesn't screw my ability to contribute at all by taking it. Components are not an issue. Does that help?

Well, you'll need to remove the Dispelling Cord (costs a couple grand, and is just a magic item). Other than that, all my further recommendations would focus around magic items.

That said, there are a couple spell options for Counterspellers.

1) Spell Turning: Sends back targeted spells. Counterspells are targeted spells. Congrats, you're immune to being countered (and targeted Dispelled).

2) Effulgent Epuration: See Spell Turning, except on CRACK. Targeted spells just go bye-bye.

3) Defensive combo: Shapechange (Regenerating form) + Veil of Undeath = Immune to damage, unless it bypasses your regeneration. Couple elemental immunities, and you're golden.

[Radar]

That still leaves out any expensive components, and there are a lot more than True Seeing.

I suppose you could research an epic spell that obviated material components less than X amount... but that would cost gold to research.

At epic levels you can Ignore Material Compontents anyway. Focus items regretably are still needed.