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    Default Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    I was fooling around with a gestalt concept. See if you can pick it:

    Code:
    Human:
    Flaws: Shaky, Murky Eyed
    Traits: Focused, Aggressive
    Level 1: Swordsage 1//Samurai 1
    	Level 1: Quick Draw
    	Human: Unnerving Calm
    	Flaw: Improved Initiative
    	Flaw: Rapid Assault
    	Swordsage: Weapon Focus (Katana)
    Level 2: Swordsage 2//Samurai 2
    	Samurai: Power Attack
    Level 3: Swordsage 3//Samurai 3
    	Level 3: Blade Mediatation - Diamond Mind
    Level 4: Swordsage 4//Samurai 4
    	Samurai: Dodge
    Level 5: Swordsage 5//Samurai 5
    Level 6: Iaijutsu Master 1//Samurai 6
    	Level 6: Blooded
    	Samurai: Mobility
    	Iaijutsu Master: Weapon Finesse - Katana
    Level 7: Iaijutsu Master 2//Swordsage 6
    Level 8: Iaijutsu Master 3//Swordsage 7
    Level 9: Iaijutsu Master 4//Swordsage 8
    	Level 9: Quick Reconnoiter
    	Iaijutsu Master: Skill Focus (Iaijutsu Focus)
    Level 10: Iaijutsu Master 5//Swordsage 9
    Level 11: Iaijutsu Master 6//Swordsage 10
    Level 12: Iaijutsu Master 7//Swordsage 11
    	Level 12: Gifted General
    Level 13: Iaijutsu Master 8//Swordsage 12
    Level 14: Iaijutsu Master 9//Swordsage 13
    	Iaijutsu Master: Evasive Reflexes (counts as Combat Expertise/Expertise for feats+classes)
    Level 15: Iaijutsu Master 10//Swordsage 14
    	Level 15: Skill Focus (Concentration)
    Level 16: Samurai 7//Swordsage 15
    Level 17: Samurai 8//Swordsage 16
    	Samurai: Spring Attack
    Level 18: Samurai 9//Swordsage 17
    	Level 18: Discipline
    Level 19: Samurai 10//Swordsage 18
    	Samurai: Cleave
    Level 20: Samurai 11//Swordsage 19
    Level 21: Samurai 12//Swordsage 20
    	Level 21: Iaijutsu Master
    	Samurai: Great Cleave
    I want to know if anyone can give me any tips for optimising this.
    Any other classes/prestige classes or feats that may serve better than many I have there, or a better order for the feats.

    Needs to have the following:
    Crane Clan Samurai from Oriental Adventures
    Full Iaijutsu Master progression (though I was thinking about using the Legacy Champion Prc with this).
    Iaijutsu Focus skill available at every level.
    Full BAB
    As much bonus to attack damage, attack rolls and initiative as possible.

    If you want to know what any feat listed here does or class features then just ask.

    I'd also like some tips on maneuvers I could use. Need at least some Diamond Mind. What would be best for this build?
    Probably going to be starting at level 1.

    The other problem I am having is that I've managed to get every stat to be giving one or more of the following: attack rolls, attack damage, initiative, AC
    Which is all useful. But it means I need decent stats in everything. lol.
    Any good solutions or will I just need to hope for good Ability score rolls?

    Books: Anything. Even non-WotC 3.5 resources, but not homebrew.
    Last edited by Gaiyamato; 2010-03-13 at 06:44 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    We took a thread that was supposed to be a diplomatic negotiation and first contact, and turned it into Darth Ghaeris' rampage...

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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    Gnomish Quickrazors, for start, instead of the Katana? Free action to sheath and unsheath them.

    Therefore, you can get your Iajutsu Damage on every attack in the Full Attack.

    Go TWF, and get more attacks. Drop Swordsage, and aim for the Swiftblade PRC instead as well, maybe? There is probably more.

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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tackyhillbillu View Post
    Gnomish Quickrazors, for start, instead of the Katana? Free action to sheath and unsheath them.

    Therefore, you can get your Iajutsu Damage on every attack in the Full Attack.

    Go TWF, and get more attacks. Drop Swordsage, and aim for the Swiftblade PRC instead as well, maybe? There is probably more.
    I would assume he want to keep his Katana and use it primarily for all of his attacks.
    Around here I have a very responsible position. Every time something goes wrong I'm responsible.

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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    That wasn't listed under the paramaters.

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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    Quickrazors are awesome and don't require him to lug around a golf bag.

    And anything that makes Gnome a viable race is a win in my book.




    Regarding the build itself, I want to see lots more Factotum in place of some of that Samurai.
    Extra maximizing the number of times you can attack while the enemies are Flat-footed is key in this sort of build.

    Also, Factotum is a god among out-of-combat non-casters.

    You might want to dip Cleric for multiple reiterations of Travel Devotion, along the same "maximize first round attacks" principle.

    Rapid Assault, Blade Meditation, the Spring Attack and Cleave lines can probably be replaced with I May Be Tiny tactics: Underfoot Combat and Confound the Bigfolk from Races of Stone provide reliable ways to render enemies Flat-Footed. Your first hit might not be as hard, but you'll probably have better luck overall.

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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    Gnome Quickrazors like others have said. Personally I'd dip Factotum, Take Able Learner, take Darkstalker, become a Necropolitan, and become a Lurking Terror as well. In this way you gain Hide in Plain Sight any time you have concealment which is not hard to get.

    Enemies who are unaware you are there are auto flat-footed so if you just keep hipsing and then full attacking you'll be fine. Probably not the style you want to play but it would function.
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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    I require Weapon Focus(Katana) as a feat for the prestige class and many of the Iaijutsu bonuses only stack onto Katana's. So I may as well stick to the Katana. I get a free Masterwork Katana (and a Masterwork Wakizash - which I'll never use) as well anyway.

    I was thinking I could use flick-of-the-wrist to get the flat-footedness goodness. But it will only work if I start using the two-weapon fighting stuff with both swords.

    As for Factotum should be a banned class for Gestalt IMO. But I did look at how much better this build would be with Factotum//Fighter/Swordsage/Iaijutsu Master/Swordsage.
    But that is just stupid. I am trying to optimise to a theme, not break the game. lol.

    The cleric dip does sound interesting.
    I was thinking I could use the Planar Touchstone to get the Travel Domain and then just take the feat anyway. That works right?

    I thought about going the evil route with Lurking Terror etc. I also thought about taking Willing Deformity and Abominable Form and a few other odds and ends for spastic levels of Intimidate bonus. Drop the Unnerving Calm and just have a giant Intimidate score.
    Leap out, scare them to bejeebers and then slice them in half. lol.

    But for fluff reasons I might make him Lawful Neutral and Human-normal. I like the idea of a completely calm Samurai who does not draw his weapon until the last moment and then kills in one hit.

    lol.
    Last edited by Gaiyamato; 2010-03-13 at 06:25 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    We took a thread that was supposed to be a diplomatic negotiation and first contact, and turned it into Darth Ghaeris' rampage...

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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaiyamato View Post
    I require Weapon Focus(Katana) as a feat for the prestige class and many of the Iaijutsu bonuses only stack onto Katana's. So I may as well stick to the Katana. I get a free Masterwork Katana (and a Masterwork Wakizash - which I'll never use) as well anyway.
    If you're referring to "One Strike, Two Cuts" and "Strike with No Thought" the main thing people are pointing out is that with the Gnomish Quickrazor you don't need OSTC because you can already make an Iaijutsu full Attack.

    The other thing to consider is how many enemies you will be facing. SwNT might sound cool. But once the fight starts you're going to need more ways than just that to catch an enemy flat-footed.

    Flick of the wrist is alright but again, a Gnomish Quickrazor would let you make a full attack against an enemy instead of a single attack per round.

    There are tricks you could use if your heart is set on the katana, but, without knowing what the rest of your parties builds will be like, for a Gestalt character you're going to be pretty weak honestly.

    Swordsage will give you alot of options but I have the feeling you're going to find yourself doing more Initiating than Iaijutsuing because of how situational your current Iaijutsu setup it.
    Last edited by Wings of Peace; 2010-03-13 at 07:15 PM.
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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    Actually there is no party. Just me and an arena in 1v1 fights. lol.

    Also with a Katana I can add Focus onto it for only 640gp (can only be added to a Katana) and it gives me a permanent +4 to Iaijutsu Focus, which means more damage.
    I was thinking about adding Initiative (+2 Luck bonus to Init) and later Speed to the sword as well.

    also a 4th Level Samurai (OA version) gets the honourable trait added to his Katana (only the Katana) which means I deal +2D6 damage to non-lawful or non-good enemies.

    So stack it all up and I'm able to get up to +9D6 damage from Iaijustu Focus, +2D6 most of the time (unless I face a Lawful Good enemy) from Honourable, extra attacks and init bonus just by using a Katana, which is a fairly decent weapon anyway. lol.
    Stack on the extra enchantments I listed above and the +12 Init from my feats as well as the fact that my init is DEX+WIS+CHA (another reason the prestige class is useful) as well.

    Also there is a Diamond Mind Maneuver that makes my opponents flat-footed if I win initiative.
    Just need a way to recycle that and I'm set.
    Maybe a level or two of the Psionic Warrior class.
    Last edited by Gaiyamato; 2010-03-13 at 07:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    We took a thread that was supposed to be a diplomatic negotiation and first contact, and turned it into Darth Ghaeris' rampage...

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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    I hate to say this, but if the other guy is building a competent Arena character, you are going to get stomped. An Example (and not an incredibly powerful one) would be my favorite Gestalt Character. A Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms/Warshaper//Swordsage.

    God, that build is so awesome once you hit level 5.

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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Wings of Peace View Post
    If you're referring to "One Strike, Two Cuts" and "Strike with No Thought" the main thing people are pointing out is that with the Gnomish Quickrazor you don't need OSTC because you can already make an Iaijutsu full Attack.

    (other quickrazor stuff)
    RAW, IF only requires 1 draw to get iaijutsu full attack anyway. It says in the rules for iaijutsu in normal combat, that it applies any time the opponent is flat-footed and you have drawn a weapon in the same round. So draw one katana, iaijutsu full attack. Then on the next round you either use a second katana, or you belt of battle or hustle to move equivalent sheathe the katana.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaiyamato View Post

    also a 4th Level Samurai (OA version) gets the honourable trait added to his Katana (only the Katana) which means I deal +2D6 damage to non-lawful or non-good enemies.
    That is only for overcoming damage reduction, not the actual +2d6 weapon enhancement.
    Last edited by Geddoe; 2010-03-13 at 09:31 PM.

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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tackyhillbillu View Post
    I hate to say this, but if the other guy is building a competent Arena character, you are going to get stomped. An Example (and not an incredibly powerful one) would be my favorite Gestalt Character. A Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many Forms/Warshaper//Swordsage.

    God, that build is so awesome once you hit level 5.
    Except we will be level to begin with.
    So he would be essentially a basic ranger with a level of swordsage and less than 20hp. I will be going first most likely with a large bonus to init. So I'll hit with with a fist full of dice before he can react.

    If we were starting at higher levels I'd agree with you.
    But I'm hoping to kill them al lat level as I meet them. lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geddoe View Post
    RAW, IF only requires 1 draw to get iaijutsu full attack anyway. It says in the rules for iaijutsu in normal combat, that it applies any time the opponent is flat-footed and you have drawn a weapon in the same round. So draw one katana, iaijutsu full attack. Then on the next round you either use a second katana, or you belt of battle or hustle to move equivalent sheathe the katana.
    I was thinking of using the belt if I can get it.
    But the idea is that at low levels there won't be a second round.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geddoe View Post
    That is only for overcoming damage reduction, not the actual +2d6 weapon enhancement.
    No. in the 3.5 update the Honourable ability conferred by a Samurai only works on a Katana. Damage bonus and overcoming DR.
    Also reading it the CHA to attack rolls and damage only counts on the Katana as well.

    The build is more around Iaijutsu Focus with a Katana than anything else. lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    We took a thread that was supposed to be a diplomatic negotiation and first contact, and turned it into Darth Ghaeris' rampage...

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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    As far as Maneuvers go, Moment of Perfect Mind is a great level 1 maneuver. You substitute a Concentration check for a Will Save. Which unless you are pumping you Wisdom (you might I generally don't use Swordsage) will be lower than the 4+Con you can get a first level.

    Oh and Sapphire Nightmare Blade: Conc check vs. Opponents AC - Opponent becomes flat-footed and you deal additional damage.

    And that should get you past some low level save or sucks in the Arena.
    Last edited by Soonerdj; 2010-03-13 at 11:37 PM.
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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    Uhhh, no, that build would still win. Pretty easily, in fact. 1-4, it is weaker, but not weak.

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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaiyamato View Post
    No. in the 3.5 update the Honourable ability conferred by a Samurai only works on a Katana. Damage bonus and overcoming DR.Also reading it the CHA to attack rolls and damage only counts on the Katana as well.
    Okay, just looked at the update. Dragon 318, which contains the official OA 3.5 update specifically says the ancestral daisho is only considered honorable for the purposes of overcoming the damage resistance of certain creatures. It is not the Honorable weapon enhancement. Maybe you should have read it yourself.
    Last edited by Geddoe; 2010-03-14 at 12:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Making the best out of Iaijutsu focus [3.5]

    Quote Originally Posted by Soonerdj View Post
    As far as Maneuvers go, Moment of Perfect Mind is a great level 1 maneuver. You substitute a Concentration check for a Will Save. Which unless you are pumping you Wisdom (you might I generally don't use Swordsage) will be lower than the 4+Con you can get a first level.
    Will will likely be my main ability score aside from Cha and Str.
    But yeah. I was thinking of that as a Maneuver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soonerdj View Post
    Oh and Sapphire Nightmare Blade: Conc check vs. Opponents AC - Opponent becomes flat-footed and you deal additional damage.
    Doesn't that replace my attack roll though?
    If it does do I still get all my bonuses to attack rolls? Probably not is my thought. My attack roll bonus may actually be slightly higher than my Concentration skill is all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soonerdj View Post
    And that should get you past some low level save or sucks in the Arena.
    Yeah thanks. :)
    I'm hoping to win Init and slice them up in a single hit though.
    But in case of bad luck it would be good to have a backup plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tackyhillbillu View Post
    Uhhh, no, that build would still win. Pretty easily, in fact. 1-4, it is weaker, but not weak.
    Maybe if he won init. But that is really all combats are at level 1-2 regardless of class anyway. Rarely do you have enough HP to not drop below 0 from a single strike.

    Quote Originally Posted by Geddoe View Post
    Okay, just looked at the update. Dragon 318, which contains the official OA 3.5 update specifically says the ancestral daisho is only considered honorable for the purposes of overcoming the damage resistance of certain creatures. It is not the Honorable weapon enhancement. Maybe you should have read it yourself.
    I did.. but obviously misread it.
    I'll look again thanks. lol.

    EDIT: Your right sorry. Applies to both ancestral weapons though.
    Last edited by Gaiyamato; 2010-03-14 at 12:52 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    We took a thread that was supposed to be a diplomatic negotiation and first contact, and turned it into Darth Ghaeris' rampage...

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