closing the gap with the sorcerer

[taltamir]

What are some of the best way for a sorcerer to close the gap between them and a wizard?

I noticed that on the PHB2 p61 there is an alternate class feature where a sorcerer swaps his ability to take a familiar with the "metamagic specialist", which makes his metamagic take normal amount of time to cast (and; more importantly, allows him to use quicken)
And if you really miss your familiar, you can always take one using a single feat.

What are some of the other ways to eliminate the advantages of a wizard over a sorcerer? (aside from asking your DM to houserule it of course :P)

Specifically, the biggest issues I see are:
1. Metamagic - no quicken, metamagic takes longer to cast.
SOLVED: Metamagic Specialist solves this one.
2. Spells known - you know very few, you can only swap a few on levelup.
SOLVED: Arcane Disciple (spell domain) mostly solves this one.
3. Spell Progression - you are a level behind on max spell level.
4. Spells per Day - focused specialist means the wizard actually has MORE spells per day than you of max spell level, although with lower level spells you both have 6+stat spells per day.

Please cite the source (if you can) of the solution to each of those problems.

[Kylarra]

MotAO (CArc) is a usual culprit for spells "known".

[Lycanthromancer]

Vow of Poverty and the Dark Chaos Shuffle let you make up for those bonus feats.

And, of course, white dragonspawn loredrake Dragonwrought kobold allows you to bridge the gap in when you get your spells.

Both have fairly obvious sources (do I really have to cite?).

[Godskook]

Arcane Spellsurge + DMM(Persist) + Turning + Metamagic

Don't know the source of the first one, and the others are more general/SRD, so yeah. You now have 'quicken', essentially. Be warned that its fairly nova-ish, though.

[Thurbane]

Rapid Metamagic (CM) allows a spontaneous caster to use metamagic without increasing casting time.

[Corey]

Arcane Spellsurge -- 7th Level spell from either Dragon Magic or Races of the Dragon -- solves the lack of Quicken quite nicely once you get that high.

[Corey]

MotAO (CArc) is a usual culprit for spells "known".

As written, it requires one to prepare spells. What's the workaround?

[Thurbane]

There's a feat (Arcane Preparation?) that allows spontaneous casters to memorize spells, and therefore qualify for the PrC.

[Kylarra]

As written, it requires one to prepare spells. What's the workaround?

As Thurbane said, arcane preparation (also from CArc). Interestingly enough, this also "solves" the metamagic issue, assuming you know ahead of time which metas you want on spells.

[Pluto]

What are some of the other ways to eliminate the advantages of a wizard over a sorcerer? (aside from asking your DM to houserule it of course :P)

Sheer brute force in spell output.

Arcane Fusion, especially.

Also, as generic as this advice is, spells with the most versatile effects.
(Things like Major Creation, Polymorph, Shadow Conjuration, Planar Binding... pretty much spell that redirects you to a different book or spell list.)

[magic9mushroom]

1. Metamagic - no quicken, metamagic takes longer to cast.

Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic) or Rapid Metamagic (Complete Mage).

SOLVED: Metamagic Specialist solves this one.

Wrong. Metamagic Specialist is 3/day.

2. Spells known - you know very few, you can only swap a few on levelup.

Runestaves (Magic Item Compendium), Knowstones (some Dragon I don't have), Mage of the Arcane Order (Complete Arcane), spells that can mimic other spells (lots of books)

3. Spell Progression - you are a level behind on max spell level.

a) Kobold/Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon)/Draconic Reservoir/Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (Races of the Dragon Web Enhancement: Kobolds: Playing to their Strengths).

b) White Dragonspawn (Dragonlance Campaign Setting)/Reducing Level Adjustments (Unearthed Arcana)

c) Kobold/Dragonwrought (Races of the Dragon)/Loredrake (Dragons of Eberron). Of debatable legality and so cheesy that you won't be allowed to take it; included for completeness.

4. Spells per Day - focused specialist means the wizard actually has MORE spells per day than you of max spell level, although with lower level spells you both have 6+stat spells per day.

Fixing the spell-level problem fixes this automatically. If you want more spells/day, use Tainted Scholar. WARNING: EXTREME CHEESE DETECTED. LIKELIHOOD OF OVERHEAD ANVILS SPONTANEOUSLY APPEARING: VERY HIGH.

[Starscream]

Spells Known is one of a sorcerer's biggest weaknesses. There are a couple of PrCs that remedy this. Sand Shaper is my favorite, it gives you over 40 new spells known.

However, you will lose one caster level in the process (You only need a one level dip to get the new spells). But I think the fact that a sorcerer gets more spells per day anyway makes up for it (you'll still be a bit ahead of a wizard 20 in that department).

[magic9mushroom]

Spells Known is one of a sorcerer's biggest weaknesses. There are a couple of PrCs that remedy this. Sand Shaper is my favorite, it gives you over 40 new spells known.

However, you will lose one caster level in the process (You only need a one level dip to get the new spells). But I think the fact that a sorcerer gets more spells per day anyway makes up for it (you'll still be a bit ahead of a wizard 20 in that department).

Focused Specialist sends its regards. Unless you start on the White Dragoncheese Kobold.

[taltamir]

Sheer brute force in spell output.

I don't get it

Arcane Spellsurge + DMM(Persist) + Turning + Metamagic

Don't know the source of the first one, and the others are more general/SRD, so yeah. You now have 'quicken', essentially. Be warned that its fairly nova-ish, though.

how can a sorcerer get divine metamagic or turning?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I don't get it



how can a sorcerer get divine metamagic or turning?

I'm almost certain to be ninja'd, but sacred exorcist gets you turning for a 1 level dip. Costs you a spell know though.

[magic9mushroom]

I don't get it

Arcane Fusion = 2 spells with 1 action. Combine with Arcane Spellsurge and you can get more spells off per round than a Wizard.

how can a sorcerer get divine metamagic or turning?

Divine Metamagic only applies to divine spells, so... Rainbow Servant's non-arcane list spells count, though Rainbow Servant is crap for Sorcerers.

Turning can be gotten by various means. Sacred Exorcist is one.

[Itous]

another good feat is:

Practiced Caster (Complete Arcane) increases your caster level by +4

so when you roll a magic missile check you roll damage as if you were a level 5 (also most people i know tend to forget magic missile effects more then one target providing they are standing no more then 15ft appart)

[taltamir]

Practiced Caster (Complete Arcane) increases your caster level by +4

so when you roll a magic missile check you roll damage as if you were a level 5 (also most people i know tend to forget magic missile effects more then one target providing they are standing no more then 15ft appart)

to a maximum equal to your hit dice.
A level 1 human sorcerer has 1 hit dice, he gets nothing with the spell.
A sorcerer 1/fighter 1 will get +1 CL from that feat. A sorcerer 1/fighter 2 will get +2 from that feat, and so on.

and magic missile affecting multiple targets requires that you SPLIT THE DAMAGE between them.

Also, wizards have magic missile AND can take practiced spellcaster.

[magic9mushroom]

another good feat is:

Practiced Caster (Complete Arcane) increases your caster level by +4

so when you roll a magic missile check you roll damage as if you were a level 5 (also most people i know tend to forget magic missile effects more then one target providing they are standing no more then 15ft appart)

Practised Spellcaster is good if and only if your caster level is less than your hit dice.

If your caster level is less than your hit dice, you have violated Rule 1: Thou shalt not give up caster levels.

[Optimystik]

If your caster level is less than your hit dice, you have violated Rule 1: Thou shalt not give up caster levels.

I was never overly impressed by that rule. A CL 17 Wizard is down to what, tier 2? Boo-hoo, I can still tell reality to shut up and sit down, it just takes me longer.

Personally, as long as I get 9th-level spells pre-epic that's really all that should matter.

[magic9mushroom]

I was never overly impressed by that rule. A CL 17 Wizard is down to what, tier 2? Boo-hoo, I can still tell reality to shut up and sit down, it just takes me longer.

Personally, as long as I get 9th-level spells pre-epic that's really all that should matter.

I wasn't being entirely serious, although it must be noted that prior to the levelling out at 9th level spells, very few PrC abilities are worth a caster level.

[taltamir]

I was never overly impressed by that rule. A CL 17 Wizard is down to what, tier 2? Boo-hoo, I can still tell reality to shut up and sit down, it just takes me longer.

Personally, as long as I get 9th-level spells pre-epic that's really all that should matter.

I always felt it had more to do with the PATH to 17th level... A 17th level wizard is tier 1, nearly indistinguishable from a 20th level wizard actually. they both have 9th level spells, a few more slots don't make much a difference anymore.

The problem is that for many many levels you will be far behind on spellcasting, and since casting is so good, you will be well behind the power curve. being a 11th level character that casts as a 8th level wizard hurts. being 20th level and casting as wizard 17 isn't a big deal. I have played multiclass casters and the losss of caster levels is devastating. This is especially true if you are stuck with first and maybe second level spells in the total level 5 to 10 range. (And *shudder* LA); also, it hurts more if you don't min max.

[Gnorman]

I always felt it had more to do with the PATH to 17th level... A 17th level wizard is tier 1, nearly indistinguishable from a 20th level wizard actually. they both have 9th level spells, a few more slots don't make much a difference anymore.

The problem is that for many many levels you will be far behind on spellcasting, and since casting is so good, you will be well behind the power curve. being a 11th level character that casts as a 8th level wizard hurts. being 20th level and casting as wizard 17 isn't a big deal. I have played multiclass casters and the losss of caster levels is devastating. This is especially true if you are stuck with first and maybe second level spells in the total level 5 to 10 range. (And *shudder* LA); also, it hurts more if you don't min max.

If you're hurting for lack of higher spells, you're just not using your lower ones well enough. A level 17 wizard can still mess things up with Glitterdust and Web, after all.

Still, I feel ya. Hitting that new level of spells makes playing a wizard so satisfying - a wealth of new options, new ways of bending people to your will, new ways of exploring the world, new ways of snuffing out the lives of your enemies and raising their tattered corpses as mindless slaves in your great, burgeoning empire.

[taltamir]

If you're hurting for lack of higher spells, you're just not using your lower ones well enough. A level 17 wizard can still mess things up with Glitterdust and Web, after all.

Still, I feel ya. Hitting that new level of spells makes playing a wizard so satisfying - a wealth of new options, new ways of bending people to your will, new ways of exploring the world, new ways of snuffing out the lives of your enemies and raising their tattered corpses as mindless slaves in your great, burgeoning empire.

web is an awesome spell.. it is also extremely rare for me to encounter something in a location where i can ANCHOR it.
And your 17th level wizard isn't doing jack squat with web because all the enemies now have freedom of moment/equivalent.

glitterdust is always a nice spell to have, but your chances of fighting an enemy which is immune are very high later on.
When you are level 10 and you are incapable of combat due to low AC, HP, and BAB, and your best spells are grease, color spray, web, and glitterdust... well, you have a problem. (not that these aren't awesome spells, but they could be better...)
Shape spell is also very very powerful (particularly the 4 independent 10 foot diameter bursts mode). shaped glitterdusts, webs, grease and colorspray are much much better than the regular versions. But take higher level slots (which you don't have).

and that is if you are a tactical master and know to use those 4 spells.. the average player is a blaster or just randomly selects "thematic" spells and doesn't metamagic. where this is truly devastating as a handicap.

Actually, I am not sure who is hurt more. The min maxer loses access to higher level spells which he could use to amazing effect, what with knowing exactly which spells to select. the casual player is screwed because he doesn't have access to real blasting spells, CL for blasting, or his "thematic" (ex, only take necromancy spells) spells are much lower levels

[taltamir]

I just had a mind shattering idea...
is there a way for the sorcerer to take divine spells, or take a divine domain?
the spell domain from SC would give him access to practically all other arcane spells...

Oh, and the PrC mage of the arcane order (is that what its called?) will be godly for a sorcerer... he can get ANY arcane spell he wants, he just has sot "pay it back" later on. This is perfect for a sorcerer.

[Godskook]

Speaking from the game I'm currently in, losing 2 caster levels has not caused me serious trouble. I mostly bemoan my distinct lack of spells/day versus our party's full-casters(and at only L6, the lack is significant), but I handle alright, especially since my specialty is BC, and neither full-caster spends a lot of time there, with the cleric doing a more healing+buff role, and the evoker being a classic evoker.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Arcane Spellsurge + DMM(Persist) + Turning + Metamagic

Don't know the source of the first one, and the others are more general/SRD, so yeah. You now have 'quicken', essentially. Be warned that its fairly nova-ish, though.

DMM can only be used on divine spells not arcane.

[Godskook]

DMM can only be used on divine spells not arcane.

Huh, so it does. My bad.

[taltamir]

also, sanctum spell requires another metamagic feat as a prereq.
so you need precocious apprentic, random meta feat and sanctum spell to qualify at level 1. which is a little difficult. Also you need to perform a grand service to elfkind which you are not going to be able to do at level 1.

[Adonis1x23]

I just had a mind shattering idea...
is there a way for the sorcerer to take divine spells, or take a divine domain?
the spell domain from SC would give him access to practically all other arcane spells...

This needs to be answered.