3.5e Question: Sunder v Unarmed/Natual Attacks

[licidy]

Hey there everyone, been looking around to answer this question and have come up with bubkiss:

In a DnD 3.5e campaign I'm running, one of the players took Improved Sunder after I threw a hydra at the party. Her argument now is that since a hydra allows one to make sunder attempts at its neck, she should be able to make sunder attempts to behead all enemies. I noted that sunder requires you to attack a weapon, armor or other held object, to which she retorts that any body part can be used as an unarmed strike and thus is sunderable (also meaning that one can sunder any natural attack).

For the time being I have agreed with her, making sunder attempts at body parts have counted as objects (so half damage), and counting bones as having a hardness of 5. For simple extremities such as hands and feat, I ruled that each have 5HP (based off of the Spectral Hand spell), while a neck/head has 1/2 the creature's total HP.

Has anyone else ran into this situation? Are there actual rules on this? If no rules are out there, is my temp house ruling fine? Or are the better suggestions out there?

[Glimbur]

Sundering isn't particularly hard, and it's not limited in times/day. This rule effectively halves everyone's hit points, makes it pretty trivial to maim your opponent so it's even more a question of who goes first, and raises the question of why no one else thought of this first.

This is crazy overpowered. Change the rule. If the player complains, send a monster at the PC that sunders off their limbs. A group of orc barbarians should work well for that. Then ret-con it, or supply regenerations or something so you don't TPK to prove a point.

[tyckspoon]

... revert that ruling. Do it now. Or at least make sundering off a body part *hard*. D&D does not have called shot rules or location-specific damage for very good reasons; it makes it much too easy to utterly bypass the HP count and cripple an enemy (plus the silliness of whacking off all four extremities leaving you with an opponent who is still perfectly healthy, as represented by still having half or more of his HP.)

[dspeyer]

... making sunder attempts at body parts have counted as objects (so half damage) ... bones have a hardness of 5.... a neck/head has 1/2 the creature's total HP.

So trying to behead someone is the same as killing them normally except they get DR 10/-?

[Volkov]

Have a monster sunder their necks or their primary hand.

[licidy]

So what's the logic argument towards that Sunder allows you to target weapons, and unarmed/natural attacks are weapons?

[Volkov]

... revert that ruling. Do it now. Or at least make sundering off a body part *hard*. D&D does not have called shot rules or location-specific damage for very good reasons; it makes it much too easy to utterly bypass the HP count and cripple an enemy (plus the silliness of whacking off all four extremities leaving you with an opponent who is still perfectly healthy, as represented by still having half or more of his HP.)

I smell a monty python reference.

[tyckspoon]

So what's the logic argument towards that Sunder allows you to target weapons, and unarmed/natural attacks are weapons?

They're.. not. That's really all there is to it. A weapon is a discrete device manufactured for the purpose of causing harm. A natural weapon is a part of a creature, with no independent existence except as part of that creature, and creatures are not Sunder-able unless a specific rule exists for an individual .creature, as in the case of a hydra. Sometimes you will simply have to say no,

[Myou]

They're.. not. That's really all there is to it. A weapon is a discrete device manufactured for the purpose of causing harm. A natural weapon is a part of a creature, with no independent existence except as part of that creature, and creatures are not Sunder-able unless a specific rule exists for an individual .creature, as in the case of a hydra. Sometimes you will simply have to say no,

It's specific trumps general - the hydra rule is an exception, natural weapons can't be sundered and body parts are not natural weapons anyway.

[licidy]

So trying to behead someone is the same as killing them normally except they get DR 10/-?

Yeah, I guess. Hadn't exactly meshed up my math there had I? LOL.

The player didn't think to start sundering people's heads and hands until they were fighting a mini-boss, a cleric entropomancer with the Diehard Feat and the Delay Death Spell. I was trying to get them to either be a bit more creative in taking down opponents, or realize that they would need to start an endurance match against him. The spell casters (who had dispel magic) didn't want to try dispelling, and after the rogue dropped into the negatives, the paladin decided she'd sunder the guy's hands to stop his casting.

[Volkov]

Also, are any of the PC's character's male mammals? If so, then sunder off their.....you know. Sure it won't kill them, but your players will be terrified of you for a long time.

[tyckspoon]

The spell casters (who had dispel magic) didn't want to try dispelling, and after the rogue dropped into the negatives, the paladin decided she'd sunder the guy's hands to stop his casting.

.. none of them thought to just bonk him over the head? A single point of non-lethal damage would have knocked him out.

[licidy]

They're.. not. That's really all there is to it. A weapon is a discrete device manufactured for the purpose of causing harm. A natural weapon is a part of a creature, with no independent existence except as part of that creature, and creatures are not Sunder-able unless a specific rule exists for an individual .creature, as in the case of a hydra. Sometimes you will simply have to say no,

Awesome, that's the kind of logic I was looking for! ^.^ Thanks!

[licidy]

.. none of them thought to just bonk him over the head? A single point of non-lethal damage would have knocked him out.

Yeah, they realized that 3 hours later at Steak-n-Shake. LOL