Which is better 2.0: Wizard vs Psion vs Archivist=Let's Make Things Interesting!

[LichPrinceAlim]

Let's say, for the sake of argument, all three are Optimized to What isn't broken, and are on a neutral battleground, who wins: Archivist, Wizard, or Psion?

[Kylarra]

They team together to create an epic spell that allows them to find you and torture you forever for trying to come up with this idea.

[Kurald Galain]

Me.

[Hyozo]

The other two spend an hour preparing their spells, both in character and out. This whole time, the psion is prebuffing himself, laughing at the other two, and playing checkers with the DM.

[Lycanthromancer]

Depends on exactly what's considered 'not broken,' and what the exact challenge is, and what splatbooks are allowed, and how many PrCs can be gotten, and what the houserules (if any) there are, and how the DM interprets the rules, and so on and so on and so on. How much op-fu is too much? I dunno, and neither does anyone else.

[LichPrinceAlim]

okay, to the level most DM's'd allow. I mean, this'll give new players a good taste of the three aces in INT Powercasting

[Lamech]

If there all optimized to the level of "not broken" they are all at the same level of "not broken", and therefore they are all equal, since there all equal. Duh.

[Iferus]

Depends on the amount of preparation (more preparation = stronger wizard) and whoever gets the highest initiative.

[sreservoir]

what happened to the erudite?

[JoshuaZ]

Let's say, for the sake of argument, all three are Optimized to What isn't broken, and are on a neutral battleground, who wins: Archivist, Wizard, or Psion?

The line between broken and not broken is inherently subjective. Is shivering touch broken? Is consumptive field broken? Is incantatrix broken? Etc. Unless you come up with a very specific definition of broken the question is not well-defined. Even given a short definition, exactly what spells the archivist has available is going to matter a lot.

[Kylarra]

okay, to the level most DM's'd allow. I mean, this'll give new players a good taste of the three aces in INT Powercasting

That's a subjective measure that will probably be higher "PO" than most new players will see in their tables for a while.

AKA it'll set up false expectations and destroy tables. Hardly what you want to present to new players.

[Sinfire Titan]

what happened to the erudite?

Apparently some still think Psion is better than it.

[JaronK]

Wizard and Archivist can adjust their powers to new situations, so if they can play proactively they win outright. Psion's still amazingly powerful of course, but it can't adapt quite as well and have exactly the right power when you need it. So if the player can anticipate what's coming or is in a vaguely sandboxy environment, the Wizard or Archivist is going to be most useful.

JaronK

[magic9mushroom]

Let's say, for the sake of argument, all three are Optimized to What isn't broken, and are on a neutral battleground, who wins: Archivist, Wizard, or Psion?

Assuming you meant Erudite, since it's the psionic wizard and at least as likely to be allowed as Archivist (Erudite's in Core+Completes, Archivist's from one of the worst-edited sourcebooks in 3.5, and one which introduces a bunch of weird rules), then Spell to Power Erudite has the greatest versatility (being able to pick up almost all spells and powers in the game and cast them spontaneously) and therefore likely wins.

That's assuming high-op but not extreme-op. Extreme-op they're all just about infinite power anyway.

If you actually did mean Psion then the powers known limit hurts them.

[2xMachina]

But psions can also research powers. It's very possible for it to have an Erudite's array of powers. (Just hard to get it in a real game, cause you won't have the downtime to research them).

[magic9mushroom]

But psions can also research powers. It's very possible for it to have an Erudite's array of powers. (Just hard to get it in a real game, cause you won't have the downtime to research them).

Researching powers still uses Powers Known IIRC. Unless you get into Psychic Chirurgery shenanigans that even with the river of XP won't allow you to catch up.

Re: Power Research:

The number of
powers that all psionic classes can know is strictly limited;
manifesters can never exceed those limits even through the
research of original powers.

[Optimystik]

(Erudite's in Core+Completes, Archivist's from one of the worst-edited sourcebooks in 3.5, and one which introduces a bunch of weird rules)

Books don't matter; they're both online

But psions can also research powers. It's very possible for it to have an Erudite's array of powers. (Just hard to get it in a real game, cause you won't have the downtime to research them).

As an Erudite IS a Psion, it too can research powers. It has less 'natural' powers known to learn them with, but can use a variety of tricks to learn as many researched powers as it wants.

[Oslecamo]

As an Erudite IS a Psion, it too can research powers. It has less 'natural' powers known to learn them with, but can use a variety of tricks to learn as many researched powers as it wants.

I'm pretty sure those tricks fall on the broken territorry. If you're using them, we may as well make it a race to see who can become pun-pun earlier.

Also, I believe I never understood quite well how erudites can unlock arcane spells as I've heard. If somebody could explain it I would be gratefull. If they can't, then wizard beats erudite, even if it has every power known, as arcane spells raw power ends up being greater than psionics.

[Optimystik]

I'm pretty sure those tricks fall on the broken territorry. If you're using them, we may as well make it a race to see who can become pun-pun earlier.

Nothing broken about them. Encode your powers into a power stone (or Bestow them on an underling), reform new ones and relearn the ones you stored. The XP cost is prohibitive enough that it prevents abuse all by itself.

Also, I believe I never understood quite well how erudites can unlock arcane spells as I've heard. If somebody could explain it I would be gratefull. If they can't, then wizard beats erudite, even if it has every power known, as arcane spells raw power ends up being greater than psionics.

Convert Spell to Power
Be afraid

[Oslecamo]

Nothing broken about them. Encode your powers into a power stone (or Bestow them on an underling), reform new ones and relearn the ones you stored. The XP cost is prohibitive enough that it prevents abuse all by itself.

Excellent. You're burning exp in learning powers, the wizard is burning exp into building an army of simulacrums. Wizard wins.

Convert Spell to Power
Be afraid

Thanks. But if any and all printed variant rules are allowed whitout caring about balance, then I summon tainted scholar necropolitan. Or ethereal jaunt incantrix of the 7 veils. There's no taint benefits for psions neither is there half the avaliable meta reducers that wizards can unlock.

[Optimystik]

Excellent. You're burning exp in learning powers, the wizard is burning exp into building an army of simulacrums. Wizard wins.

First you say learning powers by expending exp is broken, then you start building a simulacrum army?

Thanks. But if any and all printed variant rules are allowed whitout caring about balance, then I summon tainted scholar necropolitan. Or ethereal jaunt incantrix. There's no taint benefits for psions neither is there half the avaliable meta reducers that wizards can unlock.

If you're allowing all printed rules then I bring in Hyperconscious and CPsi. Now I can automatically counter all your spells even if you bump them up to 144 CL, by using Anticipate Power; I have unlimited PP to do so thanks to Mental Pinnacle; and unlimited actions to do so thanks to Linked Power+Synchronicity/Anticipatory Strike.

[magic9mushroom]

Books don't matter; they're both online

Which is still outside Core+Completes.

[Cyclocone]

Thanks. But if any and all printed variant rules are allowed whitout caring about balance, then I summon tainted scholar necropolitan. Or ethereal jaunt incantrix of the 7 veils. There's no taint benefits for psions neither is there half the avaliable meta reducers that wizards can unlock.

There is Subverted Psion. It's no Tainted Scholar to be sure; but then, whatever is?

[Oslecamo]

First you say learning powers by expending exp is broken, then you start building a simulacrum army?

Just fighting fire with fire. At least it's a core spell.

If you're allowing all printed rules then I bring in Hyperconscious and CPsi. Now I can automatically counter all your spells even if you bump them up to 144 CL, by using Anticipate Power; I have unlimited PP to do so thanks to Mental Pinnacle; and unlimited actions to do so thanks to Linked Power+Synchronicity/Anticipatory Strike.

Nice one, but mental pinnacle doesn't stack with itself (bonus from the same source never stack unless said otherwise), so altough you can get some extra PPs, it's nowhere near enough to fully fuel you against the wizard's cheesed celerity throwing gate/simulacrum army.

[Optimystik]

Which is still outside Core+Completes.

My point was that you can legally get the goodness of the Archivist (and Erudite) without having to deal with the poor editing of their respective books.

Nice one, but mental pinnacle doesn't stack with itself(bonus from the same source never stack unless said otherwise), so altough you can get some extra PPs, it's nowhere near enough to fully fuel you against the wizard's cheesed gate arm.

Doesn't have to stack - it refreshes the duration, granting me 30 (or is it 33?) free PP each manifestation so long as I keep using the PP I get. By linking it to Synchronicity I never run out of actions. Meanwhile my Schism, Psicrystal, Simulacra and other duplicates are busy countering your gates until you run out of steam. (By sharing Mental Pinnacle with my Psicrystal, he keeps getting PP of his own - and since he can take feats, he can take Anticipate Power too.)

[Oslecamo]

Doesn't have to stack - it refreshes the duration, granting me 30 (or is it 33?) free PP each manifestation so long as I keep using the PP I get. By linking it to Synchronicity I never run out of actions. Meanwhile my Schism, Psicrystal, Simulacra and other duplicates are busy countering your gates until you run out of steam. (By sharing Mental Pinnacle with my Psicrystal, he keeps getting PP of his own - and since he can take feats, he can take Anticipate Power too.)

Already acounted for that. It only if the wizard is an idiot. You try to refresh, one of the wizard's mooks counters with celerity before you actualy recover the PP. You try to refresh in response, another minion counters. You'll run out of PPs sooner. And whitout PPs, no extra actions.

Plus the wizard has the familiar to your psi crystal, wich can be cheesed out as well, if not better.

Also, wizard get more minions since you had to burn exp to learn your powers.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Psion casts Synchronicity as a swift action, then casts a pair of Decerebrates, one on the Wizard, one on the Archivist, they both fail their saves vs. Fort because an optimized wizard and Archivist would have a terrible fort save, lose their brain stems, they end up drooling in a cup, and die in 1d4 days.



I could Epically Nova too.

[Optimystik]

Already acounted for that. It only if the wizard is an idiot. You try to refresh, one of the wizard's mooks counters with celerity. You try to refresh in response, another minion counters. You'll run out of PPs sooner. And whitout PPs, no extra actions.

I have far more mooks than you do, because my Psicrystal is a Thrallherd - and he also has a psicrystal, which... Hell, if you're not careful you might be one of them.

Oh, and I also have Celerity.

Also, wizard get more minions since you had to burn exp to learn your powers.

I honestly don't need that many powers beyond my regular ones learned and Expanded Knowledge to win this contest. Hell, the only actual spells I've learned are Celerity and MP.

[Oslecamo]

I have far more mooks than you do, because my Psicrystal is a Thrallherd - and he also has a psicrystal, which... Hell, if you're not careful you might be one of them.

Care to explain how your psicrystal took class levels? And anyone can do that trick with leadership. Boring.

Oh, and I also have Celerity.

I have more celerities.

I honestly don't need that many powers beyond my regular ones learned and Expanded Knowledge to win this contest. Hell, the only actual spells I've learned are Celerity and MP.

Still more than enough to spell the psion's defeat. You also lost another feat to get spell to power and several feats for expanded knowledge.

EDIT: Actualy wizard does the trallherd thingy better.

Red wizard of thay to boost CL to hell and beyond. Call super creatures. Wich all have epic leadership. And their cohorts have epic leadership as well. And the cohort's cohort... Well, just profit.

[Optimystik]

Care to explain how your psicrystal took class levels? And anyone can do that trick with leadership. Boring.

My goal was effectiveness, not entertainment.
There was a trick to get your psicrystal into it but I can't seem to find it. He can always just take leadership instead (and have his psicrystal take leadership etc.)

I have more celerities.

Not when my thralls/clones are casting them too, and countering yours.

Still more than enough to spell the psion's defeat.

Erudite, not psion.

You also lost another feat to get spell to power and several feats for expanded knowledge.

I lost a bonus feat, but I get a psicrystal as a bonus feat. I still break even with a psion.

"Several feats for EK?" No, I lost exactly one feat for EK - EK itself. Again, I don't need that many powers.