Quick question about the Retriever Monster

[NekoJoker]

Ok, so this fella has its Eye beams, he can shoot 1 per round each with some cooldown time. Now, I have this question. This beams count as rays, that means they are Touch-Attacks.

When I look at the entry it says each eye has a Save DC for each effect.

Now, I had the idea that ray attacks normally don't have DCs, and spells that incur in a DC save do not work as touch attacks.

What should I do about this? the SRD does not give me an answer and I cannot find this topic on the net...

Do I use only one? Do I use both? what do you do when sending a retriever against your players?

Thx guys.

[hamishspence]

Aren't most of the beholder's eye rays touch attacks, with a save DC for half damage, or no effect?

There is precedent for Ray attacks with Save DCs to resist.

[Flickerdart]

The eye rays are both +8 ranged touch attacks and have a DC18 save. This is pretty shoddy, but remember that he gets them as a free action.

[Last Laugh]

And has to alternate between rays. if you run one make sure that he targets a tank instead of the rogue.
erm, you can petrify the rogue.

[Knaight]

Although. Level 13, isn't there an easy way to be completely immune to touch attacks? I'm thinking there is.

[arguskos]

Although. Level 13, isn't there an easy way to be completely immune to touch attacks? I'm thinking there is.

Not that I know of. You can be immune to the effects, or make your Touch AC so stupidly insane that no one can hit you, but actually gaining immunity to touch attacks as an attack type? I've never seen that.

[The Rose Dragon]

Rays can have save DCs. They cannot, however, require a Reflex save.

[jiriku]

I think perhaps he's thinking of the ray deflection spell, which will make you immune to ranged touch attacks.

But yeah, the retriever's eye beams are fairly easy to shrug off, which is "balanced" by the fact that it's quite scary if they do manage to zap you. In particular, the petrification ray can knock you out for quite some time, especially if the party hasn't any means to remove petrification (or if you were the one who could remove petrification).

[NekoJoker]

Soooo, basically I use both right?

I make the touch attack, if it lands PC has to make his/her saving throw, then as depicted.

Another thing, rather simple but let's ask anyways, If the retriever grapples and shoots the eye beam point-blank, the grappled opponent still has no DEX to Touch AC right?

Rays can have save DCs. They cannot, however, require a Reflex save.

Would you give further info?

[Runestar]

Ray of exhaustion is a ray which allows for fort: partial.

[Flickerdart]

Rays can have save DCs. They cannot, however, require a Reflex save.

I cannot find any such rule anywhere, and in any case specific trumps general.

[KillianHawkeye]

Would you give further info?

Logically, you can't reflexively dodge something that's already hit you. Reflex saves are mostly used for area spells. It's not that it's against the rules for a ray spell to allow a Reflex save, just that there aren't any spells designed that way because it makes no sense.

[Flickerdart]

Perhaps the save is to avoid getting hit in the face, or the Retriever has a targeting system you have to dodge (the attack roll) and only then shoots the laser (Reflex save).

[faceroll]

Logically, you can't reflexively dodge something that's already hit you. Reflex saves are mostly used for area spells. It's not that it's against the rules for a ray spell to allow a Reflex save, just that there aren't any spells designed that way because it makes no sense.

Spells that had secondary effects on a hit, like blowing up or entangling, would likely have a reflex save involved.

[KillianHawkeye]

Perhaps the save is to avoid getting hit in the face, or the Retriever has a targeting system you have to dodge (the attack roll) and only then shoots the laser (Reflex save).

The only thing I can think of is that the designers wanted to include a saving throw to balance against the free action nature of the eye rays, but neither Fortitude nor Will made any sense for the 3 damaging ones.

I'm pretty sure I've never seen any other ray that allowed a Reflex save before, because as I noted above, it doesn't really make sense. (Thus, trying to make it make sense won't be an easy endeavor.)

[Yuki Akuma]

Rays can have save DCs. They cannot, however, require a Reflex save.

Yeah this is just wrong. Plenty of touch attack spells allow Reflex saves to avoid their effects.

[The Rose Dragon]

Yeah this is just wrong. Plenty of touch attack spells allow Reflex saves to avoid their effects.

It's not touch attack spells, it's rays. Specifically. I'm not sure where the rule is from, though. I just know it's a rule.

Well, it's a ruling. It may or may not be broken at several places. I wouldn't put it above WotC.

[Yuki Akuma]

It's not touch attack spells, it's rays. Specifically. I'm not sure where the rule is from, though. I just know it's a rule.

Well, it's a ruling. It may or may not be broken at several places. I wouldn't put it above WotC.

Ah, the old "I don't know where it's from but it's totally a rule!" excuse.