Gestalt psion advice

[Araeliz]

Hello guys! I am about to start a new campaign, this time as a gestalt. We can take any WotC class, but only the basic races and we got 18,16,16,14,12,10 to distribute as attributes. I never did a gestalt before, and I was thinking about going with a Psion/Fighter build. Any ideas?

[Kylarra]

Hello guys! I am about to start a new campaign, this time as a gestalt. We can take any WotC class, but only the basic races and we got 18,16,16,14,12,10 to distribute as attributes. I never did a gestalt before, and I was thinking about going with a Psion/Fighter build. Any ideas?

Take Warblade (ToB) instead of fighter. Also consider Factotum (Dungeonscape).

[Araeliz]

Take Warblade (ToB) instead of fighter. Also consider Factotum (Dungeonscape).

ToB is definetly out of question (most of the group hates it for random reasons).

[Yuki Akuma]

Take Psychic Warrior instead of Fighter. All the good parts about being a Fighter (minus 5 BaB over the long run), plus you can use the power points for your Psion powers and vice versa.

[Touchy]

Take Psychic Warrior instead of Fighter. All the good parts about being a Fighter (minus 5 BaB over the long run), plus you can use the power points for your Psion powers and vice versa.

I'd listen to this man/women/both/neither.

[dspeyer]

Beware that the power points for a psion//psychic warrior do not stack. You do, however, get to use the psion's power point progression with the psychic warrior's low-cost powers.

[Kylarra]

Take Psychic Warrior instead of Fighter. All the good parts about being a Fighter (minus 5 BaB over the long run), plus you can use the power points for your Psion powers and vice versa.

Well, I'd recommend factotum over psywar personally, but if'n you wanted to maintain that line of bonus feats for whatever reason, then yeah, psy war over fighter anyday.

[Araeliz]

Well, I'd recommend factotum over psywar personally, but if'n you wanted to maintain that line of bonus feats for whatever reason, then yeah, psy war over fighter anyday.

I want the second card to be more combat oriented.
Also, I forgot to say, we will have a level 6 cap and after that will use alternate progressions (basically buying feats/spells/etc... with xp), that is why I thought that the fighter would become handy. So, what would be the best combination from 1 to 6?

[Yuki Akuma]

Beware that the power points for a psion//psychic warrior do not stack. You do, however, get to use the psion's power point progression with the psychic warrior's low-cost powers.

I'm not sure how you're getting this idea. Spell slots 'stack', and the EPH explicitely states that power points from multiple sources stack, so...?

[Kylarra]

Oh, you're playing E6.
Um, I guess combat oriented means you'll want BAB 6 for the iterative so...
Well, uh, without ToB um, maybe Ranger1(skills)/Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian1(pounce)/Fighter2(Dungeoncrasher)/ uh... Paladin of Freedom 2?

Really I'm at a loss. XD Could slot those last 2 levels wherever. Ranger1 is taken for the 6+int skills at level 1, Barbarian 1 is for pounce, Fighter 2 is for dungeoncrasher or feats, Paladin of Freedom is for saves if you want the +1 all saves. XD

Maybe fighter 4 for the feat. I dunno, full martial classes without ToB in e6 put me out of my normal range.

[Lycanthromancer]

I want the second card to be more combat oriented.
Also, I forgot to say, we will have a level 6 cap and after that will use alternate progressions (basically buying feats/spells/etc... with xp), that is why I thought that the fighter would become handy. So, what would be the best combination from 1 to 6?

In that case, fighter would be a decent choice. However, go with the dungeoncrasher variant from Dungeonscape.

Otherwise, you would, indeed, be wanting crusader for self-healing goodness.

And factotum is an excellent combat class, especially if you start pulling out lots of Fonts of Inspiration.

[edit] Heh. Go to your Complete Psionic and check out the ardent. Now, look at the Natural World mantle, and see that it has metamorphosis. Remember how you're going up to level 6, and how an ardent can manifest any power up to its manifester level? Now see how Overchannel raises your manifester level above its maximum?

...See the potential here?

Now all we need is some way to get powers known above your regular manifester level...

[edit edit] Actually, this does work; you can manifest metamorphosis at level 6, so long as you have Overchannel available, due to the wording on their mantles/powers known.

Whee!

[Araeliz]

In that case, fighter would be a decent choice. However, go with the dungeoncrasher variant from Dungeonscape.

Otherwise, you would, indeed, be wanting crusader for self-healing goodness.

And factotum is an excellent combat class, especially if you start pulling out lots of Fonts of Inspiration.

[edit] Heh. Go to your Complete Psionic and check out the ardent. Now, look at the Natural World mantle, and see that it has metamorphosis. Remember how you're going up to level 6, and how an ardent can manifest any power up to its manifester level? Now see how Overchannel raises your manifester level above its maximum?

...See the potential here?

Now all we need is some way to get powers known above your regular manifester level...

Factotum needs some time to shine though, right?
I liked the idea of going with the variant, however, if I know my DM, we should not spend much time in underground dungeons... and no crusader (they hate ToB, remember).
The main idea of the knight was to cover the AC at early game (since I can start with a full plate and a tower shield), give me some "alternative" fighting power, and some sweet extra feats to help the psion , plus hitpoimts and fort.

[PhoenixRivers]

Cleric // Ardent is a great blend. If you prefer a more intelligence based character?

Psion // Archivist is good (divine power and all the other cleric buffs with psion powers), though you miss out on DMM potential.

If you want something more unusual?

Swift Hunter Druid with Druidic Avenger Variant // PsyWar

You'll get Wis to AC, psionic powers, druid powers, increased movement, a slew of fun abilities, and bonus feats. Has a real nature's warrior vibe.

[Kommadore]

This is pretty out there, but a ninja psion is pretty potent. Especially using split ray on energy ray while ghost stepping. Its not a front line fighter type but the damage is severe.

[PhoenixRivers]

This is pretty out there, but a ninja psion is pretty potent. Especially using split ray on energy ray while ghost stepping. Its not a front line fighter type but the damage is severe.

I can't even count the number of stats that character needs.

Try Ninja / Ardent to cut down on stats.

[KellKheraptis]

Psion or Erudite 6||Mystic Ranger 6, taking Sword of the Arcane Order at 6th. You now have 3rd level powers, 3rd level Ranger spells, 3rd level Wizard spells, Good BAB, all good saves, 6+Int skills, plenty of buffs for damage, and a base D8 HD.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Expanding on what KellKheraptis said,

Ranger combines extremely well with any poor-everything-but-Will-saves class such as Psion, Wizard, etc. That way you'll get full BAB, three good saves, six skill points/level, d8 HP, and all the class features of both.

Mystic Ranger from Dragon 336 gives you 3rd level spells by 6th level, making it an extremely useful and versatile class. The feat Sword of the Arcane Order in FR's Champions of Valor allows you to prepare and cast Wizard spells from your Ranger spell slots, provided you have a spellbook from which to prepare them. It requires that you be a member of an order which serves FR's goddess of magic, but that could easily be adapted to a good-aligned god of magic from any setting. Definitely get at least one Lesser Rod of Extend, so your Ranger buffs will last twice as long.

You could even combine it with Wild Shape Ranger, giving up your (delayed) Combat Style progression to be able to Wild Shape just as well as any E6 Druid. Your DM may even let you take E6's Mighty Wild Shape, though taking the form of a Fleshraker (MM3) with Expansion and Animal Affinity will be just as good. You could even take the form of a bird and use your psionic powers to rain death from above on your enemies without having to take Natural Spell.

Definitely go Egoist, and probably get Overchannel and Talented so you can better augment your powers. A Torc of Power Preservation will also help out with that, so you'd be able to augment Animal Affinity to get +4 Str and Dex for example. You could skip Talented and just use Vigor to soak the damage from Overchannel, but I'd only do that if you're short on feats. Definitely get Expanded Knowledge for Expansion, and remember that you can cast Camouflage via Ranger and use Chameleon to get +20 to Hide.

[Araeliz]

How bad a favored soul//sorcerer would be? 18 cha, diplomacy and bluff as class skills, not ridiculous like wizard/archivist, and I get to pretend to be god a bit (no stupid scrolls/prayers/etc...). What about sorcer/shugenja?

[Lycanthromancer]

Definitely go Egoist Ardent, and probably get Overchannel and Talented so you can better augment your powers. A Torc of Power Preservation will also help out with that, so you'd be able to augment Animal Affinity to get +4 Str and Dex for example. You could skip Talented and just use Vigor to soak the damage from Overchannel, but I'd only do that if you're short on feats. Definitely get Expanded Knowledge for Expansion, and remember that you can cast Camouflage via Ranger and use Chameleon to get +20 to Hide.

Fixed. I was reading over the text for Ardent, and you can use metamorphosis with the Natural World mantle if you take it as your 6th level power known (as you can manifest it, but only if you use Overchannel; see my previous post's edit). Metamorphosis is one of the strongest abilities you can access at this level.

It can get you some awesome forms, and you can even craft a psychoactive skin of proteus to use it at will (though you'll really need a lot of gold for that).

[PhoenixRivers]

How bad a favored soul//sorcerer would be? 18 cha, diplomacy and bluff as class skills, not ridiculous like wizard/archivist, and I get to pretend to be god a bit (no stupid scrolls/prayers/etc...). What about sorcer/shugenja?

I tend to not favor caster/caster in gestalt. HP suffer, saves suffer.

If you're gonna go sorceror, an excellent pairing for it is paladin. It gives you strong Fort saves, cha to all saves, healing, improved BAB, and several other goodies, such as D10 HD.

[Kylarra]

You're playing E6, which is the low point of a caster's career. Even in a full 20 level game, caster//caster tends to not be optimal (unless you're gestalting with a psion, in which case it's somewhat passable due to Action Economy abuse), but even then you're less than optimal, from a gestalt standpoint. Levels 1-6 are the weaker end of the typical arcanist life, so you don't really want to tag two weak classes together. Far better to tag a midrange class, like Factotum, or a combat oriented class ranger/barb/etc to your caster for a nice base chassis to work from.

[strider24seven]

+1 for Factotum

Factota tend to rock at low-mid levels, especially once they hid level 8.

Factota rock harder with gestalt, where they provide a convenient INT-based backbone to any class. At ECL 6, you get INT to skills, damage, ac, STR and DEX skills again, and trip/bullrush attempts, AND a few minor spells. Admittedly, you can only do that a few times per encounter, but that's why you have your other class.

Even 3 levels of Factotum gets you boatloads of cool abilities (especially w/Able Learner), and lets you dip for 3 levels. Recommended dips:

Barbarian 1: Full BAB, d12 HD, Rage, Fast Movement or Totem Goodness (Full attack on a charge with INT to damage? Yes, please!)

Fighter 1-2: Full BAB, d10 HD, feats

Psywar 2: You take a BAB hit, but get 2 feats plus a few powers and PP (and PP -DO- stack with Psion, despite what others may tell you. The EPH explicitly states this, overriding the gestalt rules in UA). Expansion and Grips of Iron make you a mean grappling machine.

Marshal 1-2: Now I get CHA to STR/DEX checks too! And I make my allies better

Ranger 1-2: Full BAB, cool abilities... lets you qualify for Illithid Slayer easier.

Rogue 1-2: Sneak attack, Skillpoints, and possibly evasion. Even better if you take Changeling sub levels (Races of Eberron?).

Master of Masks 1: Wield any exotic weapon for free!

Chameleon 1-X: The ultimate in versatility. Eventually gets the ability to cast both arcane and divine spells, and gets a bonus feat they can change every 8 or so hours. Mixes well with Psion. Note, either take 2 levels for the floating feat or go all the way. Makes a mean crafter.

It's a shame TOB is out. Warblade is just brutal with just 3Factotum. Especially with Psion on the other side of gestalt. Yes, I get INT to absolutely everything, sometimes 2-3 times. And I full-manifest. And I can use maneuvers to shred everything. And I'm a skill-monkey to boot with all skills as class skills and INT out the wazoo. And I have a d12 HD and full BAB for most of my career.

Yes, I love Factota.

[Optimystik]

How bad a favored soul//sorcerer would be? 18 cha, diplomacy and bluff as class skills, not ridiculous like wizard/archivist, and I get to pretend to be god a bit (no stupid scrolls/prayers/etc...). What about sorcer/shugenja?

What PhoenixRivers said, but those two are also a terrible combination in their own right. Shugenja gets too many sorcerer spells and not enough cleric spells - you'll end up with a lot of redundancy. You get a slightly bigger hit die but no better saves/skills.

Sorcerer//Favored Soul is much better. With Sorcerer packing the offensive power, you can safely dump wisdom (Now you won't need high save DCs on your divine spells); and with Favored Soul bringing defense/utility to the table you'll have more room for powerful offense than a regular sorc would. You'll also have all good saves and medium BAB; many more cleric spells available to you than you'd get as a Shugenja; tons of spells/day and a decent number of spells known; and you're effectively SAD.

[PhoenixRivers]

What PhoenixRivers said, but those two are also a terrible combination in their own right. Shugenja gets too many sorcerer spells and not enough cleric spells - you'll end up with a lot of redundancy. You get a slightly bigger hit die but no better saves/skills.

Sorcerer//Favored Soul is much better. With Sorcerer packing the offensive power, you can safely dump wisdom (Now you won't need high save DCs on your divine spells); and with Favored Soul bringing defense/utility to the table you'll have more room for powerful offense than a regular sorc would. You'll also have all good saves and medium BAB; many more cleric spells available to you than you'd get as a Shugenja; tons of spells/day and a decent number of spells known; and you're effectively SAD.

Please note: The reasoning behind not going caster/caster is that you only have so many actions a round. Beyond a certain point?

You'll go to bed with more spells than most of your party wake up and prepare.

That's all wasted potential.

In games with less rest opportunity? Perhaps.

[Volkov]

Gestalt Psion and Erudite for moar Psionic POWAH!!! :D Or wizard, wizard is good.

[Lycanthromancer]

Gestalt Psion and Erudite for moar Psionic POWAH!!! :D

Can't gestalt psion with psion.

[Glimbur]

The Incarnum classes (besides Soulborn) are pretty good for Gestalt because they give lots of passive boosts. If you like Psion, you could go Swashbuckler on the other side for full BAB, better hit die(d8? d10?), good Ref saves, and Int to melee damage. There are better choices, but it's not terribad.

[Zergrusheddie]

Ranger 1/ Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/ Ranger 3/ Horizon Walker X // Psion.

Take Expanded Knowledge to get Strength of my Enemy and Expansion. Only problem is that it is a little MAD in that you need a high Intelligence and decent physical stats.

Feats of note:
Human: Combat Reflexes
1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spiked Chain
Bonus from Psion: Psicrystal Affinity
3 from Wolf Totem Barbarian: Improved Trip
3: Expanded Knowledge: Expansin
5 from Ranger: Endurance
5 Bonus from Psion:Expanded Knowledge: Strength of my Enemy
6 Become a Horizon Walker and basically go as you want from there.

Use a Spiked Chain and a Mithral Breastplate when you get a chance. Full BAB, all the wonderful powers of a Psion, and it gets Expansion and the juicy Strength of my Enemy. If you wanted to be a little cheesy, at level 6 or 7 take a level of Binder on the Tripper side to be able to bind Naberius. Take Body Fuel and you basically turn your Power Point Pool from a 1/day to a 1/encounter. It is essentially a Horizon Tripper on steroids and super soldier serum. Cast Strength of my Enemy and than Expansion and Rage with Whirling Frenzy. Assuming you can get max Strength bonus of 8 quickly and become Huge, you'll have a strength of 30 at level 7.

On a side note; I have never played Gestalt and only know a little bit about it, so this combination might not work.

Fail, totally missed your Stats:
STR: 14 (Expansion and Strength of my Enemy will make this plenty high)
DEX: 16 (Will need Gloves of Dexterity to get enough AoO)
CON: 16
WIS: 12
INT: 18 (Primary Stat, needs to be maxed)
CHA: 10

[sreservoir]

Gestalt Psion and Erudite for moar Psionic POWAH!!! :D Or wizard, wizard is good.

isn't erudite technically a variant psion?

[Sinfire Titan]

isn't erudite technically a variant psion?

Technically, yes. If it were from UA, it would be theoretically possible to Gestalt them (since you can multiclass between UA's variant base classes and the original class). But since it isn't, you can't.