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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default feat idea for fighters

    Name: Combat Training

    Your basic BAB is increased by 1. This feat can make your BAB higher than your level. It can be taken multiple times, it's effect stacks. A fighter may take this feat as a bonus feat.


    too strong?
    Last edited by Soranar; 2010-03-16 at 11:36 PM.

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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    Nope. There is actually another feat with the same name, so better call this Improved Attack.
    However, this could unbalance 1st level play. Better chuck a 3rd level Fighter requirement on it.
    Last edited by Zexion; 2010-03-16 at 11:48 PM.
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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    Seems fair enough, for fighters.
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    Some basic requirements are... um... required to balance this. Might also want to give is a 1+ to Damage rolls with a weapon of their choice. In fact, make this feat only apply to the weapon of choice. Wait: that makes it sound too much like Weapon Focus... this is confusing.
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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    Quote Originally Posted by Zexion View Post
    Nope. There is actually another feat with the same name, so better call this Improved Attack.
    However, this could unbalance 1st level play. Better chuck a 3rd level Fighter requirement on it.
    I disagree. Weapon Focus adds +1 to attack rolls, which is essentially the same thing as above, except the above feat applies to everything (which is a good start). That's not really saying much, though, since a +1 is a +1 is a +1. Where it applies doesn't matter all that much unless the character has a billion weapons (in which case, they're probably not magical, making them weak).

    My opinion: No requirements. It's fine as is, although a slight bonus to damage wouldn't unbalance it.
    Last edited by Temotei; 2010-03-16 at 11:55 PM.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    I'm worried about this making some PrCs very easy to qualify for. Many have a BAB requirement. And it is sort of taken for granted that you can have BAB n before level n.
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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    I'm worried about this making some PrCs very easy to qualify for. Many have a BAB requirement. And it is sort of taken for granted that you can have BAB n before level n.
    This would be a problem in some rare cases. An easy way to balance that is to include skill rank requirements instead of BAB requirements. BAB requirements are so bland anyway.
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  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    Quote Originally Posted by Temotei221 View Post
    This would be a problem in some rare cases. An easy way to balance that is to include skill rank requirements instead of BAB requirements. BAB requirements are so bland anyway.
    Yes, but some PrCs have them. As do many feats (Improved Critical, Great Cleave.) And totally changing lots of feats requirements would be problematic and work intensive. Maybe just add a note that the added BAB doesn't count for prereq purposes?
    Last edited by JoshuaZ; 2010-03-17 at 12:11 AM.
    My homebrew:

    Spoiler
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    Completed:
    ToB disciplines:

    The Narrow Bridge
    The Broken Blade

    Prestige classess:
    Disciple of Karsus -PrC for Karsites.
    The Seekers of Lost Swords and the Preserver of Future Blades Two interelated Tome of Battle Prcs,
    Master of the Hidden Seal - Binder/Divine hybrid
    Knight of the Grave- Necromancy using Gish



    Worthwhile links:

    Age of Warriors

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    Alright so I need to change the name. (I'd call it combat prowess but that also exists)

    ok I got one

    Combat Genius

    googled it, nothing came up

    As for improving damage, getting more iteratives should improve damage plenty. I don't want to make the ultimate feat, just a decent option.

    At level 1, if a human fighter took all of his feats on this (+3 BAB) he still only gets +3 to hit, I fail to see how that breaks a campaign. Compared to taking feats like improved trip for example.

    As for qualifying early, I doubt it can happen (unless you allow flaws which I don't) since you'd need to take the feats required for the class on top of these and meet the skill requirements. If someone manages to do so, good for them, fighters are weak anyway.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    Yes, but some PrCs have them. As do many feats (Improved Critical, Great Cleave.) And totally changing lots of feats requirements would be problematic and work intensive. Maybe just add a note that the added BAB doesn't count for prereq purposes?
    Actually that might give the Fighters a boost it really needs.

    Perhaps to avoid too much cheese instead of having it be taken multiple times it has an Improved and Greater versions that require certain Fighter level to be made available.

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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    This isn't a fighter-only feat from what I can see. Barbarians, rogues, druids, bards, clerics, etc. can all benefit greatly from this feat. Restricting taking the feat multiple times to fighters only might not be a bad idea though.

    Or perhaps restrict it based on BAB.

    {table=head]BAB|Times Taken
    +1/2|Once
    +3/4|Thrice
    +1/1|No limit[/table]
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    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    Quote Originally Posted by JoshuaZ View Post
    I'm worried about this making some PrCs very easy to qualify for. Many have a BAB requirement. And it is sort of taken for granted that you can have BAB n before level n.
    Let's face it, most PrCs with a BAB or skill rank requirement don't really need it, they just have it because the designers arbitrarily decided that PrCs should be attainable no sooner than ~5th level. Is the game really going to break in half if you can enter Cavalier by 7th level, or Occult Slayer by 4th, or Tempest by 5th?
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  13. - Top - End - #13
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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    The way I see it, only fighters have the extra feats to truly benefit from this. Nearly every other class would have better options than this or be too feat starved for it to truly matter.

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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    Quote Originally Posted by Soranar View Post
    The way I see it, only fighters have the extra feats to truly benefit from this. Nearly every other class would have better options than this or be too feat starved for it to truly matter.
    True, although another attack for a rogue wouldn't hurt at all. +1 BAB gives one more iterative attack for any 3/4 or 1/2 BAB character.
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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    I'd probably add some kind of level requirment, like saying the feat can only be taken once for every two fighter levels or some such. Remember BAB doesn't just affect attack rolls, it affects grapples, iterative attacks, Prc Requirments, some feat requiments (though that last one I have less problem with for the fighter) and also Power Attack and Combat Expertise.

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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    Quote Originally Posted by Nero24200 View Post
    I'd probably add some kind of level requirment, like saying the feat can only be taken once for every two fighter levels or some such. Remember BAB doesn't just affect attack rolls, it affects grapples, iterative attacks, Prc Requirments, some feat requiments (though that last one I have less problem with for the fighter) and also Power Attack and Combat Expertise.
    Most of which are affected by attack bonuses either way. The only ones attack bonuses don't affect are prestige class prerequisites, feat requirements, and iterative attacks.

    I'd say the biggest benefit is having another iterative attack, although you'll probably miss with it. It's still useful when you do hit though--especially when you have a sneak attack or some such attached to it.
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  17. - Top - End - #17
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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    Frankly, I wouldn't go for this feat. Not because of power levels, but because it is a bland static bonus. Static bonuses are boring.

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    GnomeWizardGuy

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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    I was thinking , a fighter gets 11 bonus feats, and most builds just don't need that much (6 or 7 pull off most combos like tripping , power attack/shock trooper)

    So he could spend 6 feats to get 2 extra iterative with a 2 hander weapon, which I think would be worth the cost. At that point hitting something (arguably a fighter's only true power) is insanely hard to do against defensive builds or monsters.

    And , as mentioned above, few people would bother taking it since it lacks the flashiness of most feats.

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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    How about a little change to save the PrC-requirements:


    Your basic BAB is treated as if it was increased by 1. This feat can be taken multiple times, it's effect stacks. A fighter may take this feat as a bonus feat. However, for the purpose of meeting the requirements for feats and prestige classes only the actual BAB counts.
    Last edited by Calmar; 2010-03-17 at 02:37 PM.

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    Corporate M's Avatar

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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    The bad thing about fighters being feat based is

    A: You never have enough feats to really do anything good. You either have a few select trees of feats, or a big connundrum of mundane feats. Meanwhile all the other PCs are doing glorious, insane things!

    B: The feats are hardly powerful, because any character can theoretically take them. This mean the fighter relies on power that anyone could pickup, he can just pickup more of it.

    C: The Fighter feat bonus list is too narrowly defined, (though most DMs probably just ignore it anyway...) and the prequisites are ridiculous. You're a fighter, why would you need high mental stats and a string of other feats you're never going to use?


    The way to solve this issue is design feats based off the class. It becomes a class ability, but one that is selected. As such, the fighters feats need to be determined as Fighter feats. Not feats the fighter just happens to be able to grab... Here'd be a good example:

    Weapon Focus: [Fighter Feat]
    Effect: You gain +1 on attack rolls with a weapon category.
    (Simple, Martial, Exotic or weapon groups if using the unearthed variant)

    Fighters should be able to use their bonuses on a large selection of weaponry. Not just one specified weapon. That's stupid. It might be a little more powerful for the fighter this way, but the fighter could use the extra power. Meanwhile...

    Divine Weapon Focus: [Cleric Feat]
    Effect: You gain +1 on attack rolls with your deity's favored weapon.

    This is actually more like the fighter feat now. See how crappy it is? And at that, the cleric has a plethora of spells to back him up which the fighter does not.


    Arcane Weapon Focus: [Arcane Caster Feat]
    Effect: You gain +1 on attack rolls with touch or ranged spells.

    Even more broad then the fighter's. Course, arcane casters won't be specializing in physical stats anyway, and low BaB, so it isn't too bad. (But still, it kind of step's on the fighter's toes...) This borders on just making you want to select a duskblade over a fighter.


    As you can see, the system would need a complete rehaul. As just introducing new and more powerful feats to the fighter would not be enough. And even if you do, there's still other classes to worry about. Paladins, rangers, etc. It's almost as if wotc made the game unbalanced on purpose. Because I find it hard to believe all the time they spent designing, and printing, it would be this grotestly imbalanced. Let alone if they actually satdown and play-tested...

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    Default Re: feat idea for fighters

    Quote Originally Posted by Calmar View Post
    How about a little change to save the PrC-requirements:


    Your basic BAB is treated as if it was increased by 1. This feat can be taken multiple times, it's effect stacks. A fighter may take this feat as a bonus feat. However, for the purpose of meeting the requirements for feats and prestige classes only the actual BAB counts.
    But why is this necessary? What PrCs or feats are unbalancing if you can get them 1 level earlier (or X levels earlier if you can take this multiple times)? Really, when have you ever seen a martial PrC so good that everyone would rush to take it as soon as possible?

    PrC and feat prerequisites are, for the most part, entirely arbitrary. The game does not break in half if you can pick up Improved Critical at level 7 instead of 8, or even 6th or 4th. There is no reason you should have to wait until 7th level instead of 6th to become a blackguard (or, for that matter, any level past 1st, really, but that's what variant paladins are for). BAB was vastly overrated by the designers and a fighter feat that raises it stands out because most of them are crap.

    Quote Originally Posted by Corporate M
    It's almost as if wotc made the game unbalanced on purpose. Because I find it hard to believe all the time they spent designing, and printing, it would be this grotestly imbalanced. Let alone if they actually satdown and play-tested...
    It's mostly due to the fact that the point of 3e was twofold, first taking 2e and standardizing the core mechanic and second putting the WotC stamp on D&D. The designers copied many things verbatim from 2e, changing only the parts that were affected by the core mechanic change, so they only tested the new mechanics and didn't think to test ripple effects (like Concentration checks and casting times boosting casters and universal BAB nerfing fighters). Also, we know they hardly playtest above 10th level if at all, so the part where most of the imbalance creeps in was never tested.
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