First level rogue feats

[Seth1221]

What are decent first level rogue feats? I'm thinking of a "ninja" kind of rogue - so hiding and acrobatics. Apart from feats like improved initative or dodge which are more useful feats?

[Defiant]

Point blank shot for ranged rogue
Two-weapon fighting for two-weapon fighting rogue
"Why are you only wielding one weapon when you could wield two and get extra sneak attacks for when you qualify for them?" for a single-weapon fighting rogue

[Math_Mage]

Able Learner if you plan on multiclassing.
Weapon Finesse if the difference between your Dex and Str is big enough for it to matter.

[Kaiyanwang]

"Why are you only wielding one weapon when you could wield two and get extra sneak attacks for when you qualify for them?" for a single-weapon fighting rogue

It heavily depends on your build, too, but at level 1 Rogues cannot afford weapon finesse so TWF is a dangerous source of miss, unless you rely on buff, or on a second feat able to boost your flank bonus or to-hit.

[Seth1221]

Weapon finesse sure thing but first level rogue have +0 BAB so...

[Seth1221]

It heavily depends on your build, too, but at level 1 Rogues cannot afford weapon finesse so TWF is a dangerous source of miss, unless you rely on buff, or on a second feat able to boost your flank bonus or to-hit.

But in the long run it is a good deal. on first level TWF and at 3rd weapon finesse.

[Math_Mage]

It heavily depends on your build, too, but at level 1 Rogues cannot afford weapon finesse so TWF is a dangerous source of miss, unless you rely on buff, or on a second feat able to boost your flank bonus or to-hit.

The rogue doesn't *have* to TWF before it gets to be useful...

And my bad on WF.

[Soonerdj]

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Spike Chain is always nice for rogues though it doesn't truly mature unless you have a smidgen of strength and a boatload of Dex. Power Attacking with a Finessed 2 handed weapon is awesome.

[Kaiyanwang]

The rogue doesn't *have* to TWF before it gets to be useful...

And my bad on WF.

Funny thing: I didn't wrote those things after reading your post: your post wasn't there, you just posted few seconds before me

And I agree with Seth, on the long run can be useful, but just do not expect to do it every time, becaus of what I said above.

If you don't want to TWF, a friend of mine found a nice combo with kusari-gama and adaptable flanker.

Nevermind, wrong prereqs. My bad.

[HunterOfJello]

Two-Weapon Fighting (if you are going to be melee)

Then at level 3 get Weapon Finesse.

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For Ranged get Point Blank Shot

then Precise Shot or something along those lines

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Melee is better and more common.


Later on you DEFINITELY want to take Sacred Strike from the Book of Exalted Deeds. It's an absolute must at some point since it lets you do damage to undead and evil enemies with sneak attack and does extra damage vs. evil.



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If you can take any flaws, then take them and grab extra feats.

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And you also should look through Complete Scoundrel and check out all the skill tricks in there. There are plenty for rogues that are very useful.

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Checking out the Swordsage as a class to dip into would also be a good idea since they have very good boosts, strikes and stances that would be useful to you as a sneak attacker and rogue.


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Also, what race were you going to play? Changeling Rogue gets a super awesome lvl 1 replacement level.

[Kosjsjach]

Ooh! Ooh! Darkstalker!
It probably won't come into play this early in the game, but effectively hiding from things with blindsight and the like (and the ability to flank creatures with all-around vision) fits well with your desired "ninja" motif.

*checks to see if motif was used correctly... yes, yes it was.*

EDIT: I'll say it since you might not know, but Darkstalker is from Lords of Madness. As an aside, this is a good resource for finding the source of feats or prestige classes (but not so much for spells).

[HunterOfJello]

More Random Feats that are good:


Silencing Strike (if you're a whisper gnome your sneak attacks effect enemies with Silence and give them no save for rounds equal to your character level. this is great against casters and very useful against enemies that could call out for help)

Able Learner is great for human multi-classers as stated above (and you will be multiclassing since you're a rogue).

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Replacement Levels Info:


If you're going to be doing ranged sneak attacks then Halfing Rogue replacement levels would be good for you.

Dwarf Replacement Rogues get bonuses to being able to do sneak attack type damage to constructs.

[Runestar]

You may want to start planning what you want your rogue to be able to do at later lvs. Some feats have rather hefty feat requirements, and you may need to start entering them from as early as 1st lv. Your 3rd lv feat is invariably lost to weapon finesse, unless you plan on staying as a ranged rogue, or somehow have str higher than dex.

For example, if you want spring attack, then dodge and mobility at 1st lv (paving the way for finesse at 3rd lv and spring attack at 6th). Unfortunately, bounding assault is a long way off (lv18).

If deadeye shot (PHB2), then maybe point blank shot and precise shot at 1st lv.

For adaptable flanker (PHB2) to improve your chances of qualifying for sneak attack, combat reflexes (but somewhat of a waste) and vexing flanker at 1st lv.

Another route is to take martial study (any 1st lv shadow hand maneuver) and martial stance at 1st lv. Any of the 2 1st lv stances are quite useful (one gives you concealment if you move 20ft, the other lets you flank more easily). This paves the way for shadow blade at 12th lv (or 10th, if you opt for a bonus feat instead), letting you add your dex mod as damage to your attacks.

[Math_Mage]

If we're mentioning feats to take later on, Craven. Well, heck, take it at level 1 if you want to; it's good at any level, though at this stage you may be more interested in filling prerequisites.

[Seth1221]

OK guys what do you think about this build (it's level 3 because I'm planning ahead):

human rogue1/swordsage 2(then advancing in rogue and acrobat-thief/uncanny trickster(I think his name was)
str 12
dex 18
con 10
int 14
wis 12
cha 8

Feats/flaws:

daredevil
other flaw(any ideas?)
able learner
TWF
improved initative
shadow blade
weapon finesse

What do you guys think?

[Kosjsjach]

Everyone keeps mentioning Weapon Finesse (and they're right to), but I'll point out an option: taking a level of Swashbuckler at level 2. It'd give you full BAB, free Weapon Finesse (freeing up a feat), and if you're so inclined, the option to go Rogue 3/ Swashbuckler 2+ and take the Daring Outlaw feat (in Complete Scoundrel) to stack Swashbuckler and Rogue levels for the purposes of determining sneak attack, grace, and dodge bonuses.

(Swashbuckler 3 also gives Int-to-damage for Finesse-able weapons.)

It essentially becomes a trade-off between skills or BAB.

[Runestar]

Another alternative is to simply go straight swordsage. Go shadow hand and diamond mind and you should be able to simulate a rather effective ninja-type PC.

[Person_Man]

My suggestions:

• Dragonfire Strike: Turns your Sneak Attack damage into energy damage, bypassing Precision Damage immunity, assuming your DM is nice about it (some argue that you must first deal the Sneak Attack damage before it becomes energy damage). Also adds +1d6 damage, which is nifty. Dragon Magic.
• Shape Soulmeld: Easy way to add claw, tail, or bite attacks. Magic of Incarnum.
• Deformity feats: Easy way to add reach, and a few other good attacks. Requires the useless Willing Deformity feat and Evil alignment.
• Aberration feats: Easy way to add reach, flight, tentacles, and a few other things. Requires the useless Aberration Blood feat. Lords of Madness.
• Touch of Golden Ice: Any Evil enemy hit by your unarmed strike or natural weapon must Save or take 1d6 Dex damage. Note that the Save DC is garbage, so this is only viable for a low level and/or debuff build. Book of Exalted Deeds.

[Curmudgeon]

Feats are precious to a Rogue, so your best choice should always reflect where you expect to take the character at later levels. If you're going for Shadowdancer at the earliest opportunity (8th level), I recommend starting with Combat Reflexes. You'll get to take AoOs when you're flat-footed, which will happen more often at lower levels. (At higher levels you'll have maxed out Spot so you won't be surprised very often.)

In general I recommend against Two-Weapon Fighting, for a number of reasons:

• 3/4 BAB means attack penalties hurt. A lot.
• You can only use it with full melee attacks, meaning you'll be vulnerable to full counterattacks. Really bad for a Rogue.
• When you can afford magic weapons, your expenses just doubled. Rogues need lots of magical gear, so blowing it all on weapons is pretty risky.
• The subsequent feats (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and so on) provide even poorer return than the initial one, so why get started on this course?

[jpreem]

Feats are precious to a Rogue, so your best choice should always reflect where you expect to take the character at later levels. If you're going for Shadowdancer at the earliest opportunity (8th level), I recommend starting with Combat Reflexes. You'll get to take AoOs when you're flat-footed, which will happen more often at lower levels. (At higher levels you'll have maxed out Spot so you won't be surprised very often.)

In general I recommend against Two-Weapon Fighting, for a number of reasons:

• 3/4 BAB means attack penalties hurt. A lot.
• You can only use it with full melee attacks, meaning you'll be vulnerable to full counterattacks. Really bad for a Rogue.
• When you can afford magic weapons, your expenses just doubled. Rogues need lots of magical gear, so blowing it all on weapons is pretty risky.
• The subsequent feats (Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and so on) provide even poorer return than the initial one, so why get started on this course?

Having to use a full round action for TWF has always made me really irate. Same with flurry of blows. Especially beacuse both of those actions are somewhat in my mind tied to dextrous, dodgy, spring attack-y types. ( As for the poor monk they are even "designed" to be one) And yet the only way to utilize your flashy combat style is to stand there like a stupid target practice.
To not to hijack this thread i posted my rant and a question here.
TWF and flurry of blows as a standard action

[unre9istered]

A human rogue using 2WF and thrown weapons will need quickdraw, any other race will need this at 3rd. If your not using 2WF then this can wait till at least 6th.

[Person_Man]

OK guys what do you think about this build (it's level 3 because I'm planning ahead):

human rogue1/swordsage 2(then advancing in rogue and acrobat-thief/uncanny trickster(I think his name was)
str 12
dex 18
con 10
int 14
wis 12
cha 8

Feats/flaws:

daredevil
other flaw(any ideas?)
able learner
TWF
improved initative
shadow blade
weapon finesse

What do you guys think?

If you have access to and are willing to play a Swordsage, there's really not much of a reason to take Rogue, Thief Acrobat, or Uncanny Trickster. Just go strait Swordsage.

Craven > Shadow Blade

Weapon Finesse is questionable for a +3 To-Hit difference. When your Dex gets to 20 or higher, then you should pick it up. But in the meantime, you'll get more at low level from other Feats.

Why do you need Able Learner? Rogues and Swordsages have almost every Skill in common.

[Eldariel]

Why do you need Able Learner? Rogues and Swordsages have almost every Skill in common.

Rogue gets Trapfinding and Disable Device, along with several key skills SS misses (Spot, Use Magic Device, Sleight of Hand, Forgery, etc.); Rogue/SS is definitely a better Rogue than just plain SS. Rogue 3 also gets Penetrating Attack which can be nice in the combination, though Rogue 1 should be enough as a basis.

[Draz74]

EDIT: Cursed ninjas!

Why do you need Able Learner? Rogues and Swordsages have almost every Skill in common.

Not true. Here are the non-overlaps:

Rogue:

• Appraise
• Bluff
• Decipher Script
• Diplomacy
• Disable Device
• Disguise
• Escape Artist
• Forgery
• Gather Information
• Open Lock
• Perform
• Search
• Sleight of Hand
• Spot
• Use Magic Device
• Use Rope

Swordsage

• Concentration
• Heal
• Know (history)
• Know (nature)
• Know (nobility)
• Martial Lore
• Ride

[Person_Man]

Rogue gets Trapfinding and Disable Device, along with several key skills SS misses (Spot, Use Magic Device, Sleight of Hand, Forgery, etc.); Rogue/SS is definitely a better Rogue than just plain SS. Rogue 3 also gets Penetrating Attack which can be nice in the combination, though Rogue 1 should be enough as a basis.

You and Draz are correct - I should have been more specific.

If the OP wants to play a "hiding and acrobatics" character, then the Swordsage already has Balance, Climb, Hide, Jump, Move Silently, Tumble. Presumably he'll want to max out most of those Skills. This leaves him with enough Skill points to max out 2-4ish other Skills. If he wants to use Diamond Mind, he'll probably want to max out Concentration. If he wants to use Setting Sun, he might want to max out Sense Motive (although I think there is only 1 or 2 maneuvers that use it). And he might want to invest in things like Intimidate, Listen, or Knowledge (whatever), which the Swordsage already has covered. So that doesn't leave a lot of Skill Points for other things.

If there is only one or two Rogue Skills he wants access to, he may be able to cover those Skills with a Feat or Magic Item (which are less of an investment then a class level), depending on what he wants to do. So in my opinion I don't think it's worth nerfing the Swordsage maneuver and class ability progression by mixing it up with Rogue/etc, unless he is going to use non-Swordsage Rogue Skills heavily. If he really wants to be the party trapfinder/lookout/toolbox, then yes, Rogue is a good idea. If he just wants to be sneaky and acrobatic while while pulling off awesome maneuvers, then strait Swordsage is a better idea.

[LichPrinceAlim]

there's a great feat from DMC (dragon magazine compendium) that gives you an AC bonus and other goodies for using only one weapon

[Kaiyanwang]

there's a great feat from DMC (dragon magazine compendium) that gives you an AC bonus and other goodies for using only one weapon

In Dragon Comendium comes to my mind Single Blade Style.. but is a +2 dodge to AC and requires Combat Expertise.

Maybe you are referring to Einhander, a [tactical] from PH II but has +6 of prerequisite.

Even if, I guess if there is a way to stack all these things an build a decent one-hand-fighter..

[DwarvenExodus]

Funny thing: I didn't wrote those things after reading your post: your post wasn't there, you just posted few seconds before me

This is, ironically enough, what we call Ninja'd