Kicking off a Sorcerer

[Math_Mage]

Campaign starting at level 3. For fluff reasons, will include at least some levels in the Fiend-blooded prestige class (DM has house-ruled that Sorcerers get Knowledge(planes) as a class skill). Two flaws. Here's the sheet, and here are the stats:

Kyra, Human Sorcerer 3
Str 9, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 16
Feats--
Human: Eschew Materials
Flaw: Improved Initiative
Flaw: Silent Spell
1st: Invisible Spell
3rd: Obtain Familiar

Metamagic Specialist ACF--5 spells/day metamagic w/out casting time increase

1st-level spells: Grease, Sleep, Silent Image

Question 1: Is the familiar worth burning the feat? How about another on, say, Combat Familiar or Improved Familiar or Spell-linked Familiar later on? Keep in mind that at least one later feat slot is already taken up by Blood Calls to Blood later on, for Fiend-blooded.
Question 2: Should I be getting good metamagic some other way, like Rapid Metamagic or Arcane Preparation?
Question 3: What metamagic should I definitely slot in at higher levels besides Heighten and Quicken?
Question 4: Am I missing blindingly obvious stuff here?

I'd like to be at, er, about 80% optimization, if such a thing can be expressed in percentages. I'm looking to help mold the campaign, but not to break it.

Thanks!

[RagnaroksChosen]

Question 1: Is the familiar worth burning the feat? How about another on, say, Combat Familiar or Improved Familiar or Spell-linked Familiar later on? Keep in mind that at least one later feat slot is already taken up by Blood Calls to Blood later on, for Fiend-blooded.

I love familiars so yes though i wouldn't wast another feat on an imrpoved based on your class and feats. I would grab a raven or something that can speak.

Question 2: Should I be getting good metamagic some other way, like Rapid Metamagic or Arcane Preparation?

Rapid meta magic is nice i would sugest picking it up as you seem to have a magic intensive build

Question 3: What metamagic should I definitely slot in at higher levels besides Heighten and Quicken?

Twin spell is amazing as in repeat spell. though i would get meta magic reducers on twin, and quicken.

Question 4: Am I missing blindingly obvious stuff here?

Meta magic reducers. metamagic school focus is one. as well as the pick a spell feat and meta magic cost one less for said spell(its name eludes me at the moment)



Also at 3rd level i would drop the sleep for some thing else
some sugestions would be ray of enfeeblement or magic missle

[Runestar]

Is there a reason why you are taking silent spell, invisible spell and eschew components? These are fairly weak feats (though I admit silent spell may have some use if you suddenly find yourself in a silence spell).

For decent metamagic feats, heighten is definitely useful, as is quicken, though I wouldn't be in a hurry to pick them up. Extend is always neat (but may be superfluous if you can acquire a metamagic rod). Empower isn't too shabby either.

I would also recommend scrapping the familiar. Too much effort spent keeping it alive for too little benefit, IMO. You don't really have a lot of feats to spare anyways.

Other than this, your strength really lies in your spell selection, so you don't really need to worry too much about your feats.

[Math_Mage]

I love familiars so yes though i wouldn't wast another feat on an imrpoved based on your class and feats. I would grab a raven or something that can speak.

The only advantage of speaking that I'm aware of is UMD, and a skill point-starved sorcerer with UMD cross-class isn't going to make much use of that. Is there something else I should be aware of? Else I'm looking at owl.

Rapid meta magic is nice i would sugest picking it up as you seem to have a magic intensive build

Even after metamagic specialist, eh? Or is that 'instead of'?

Twin spell is amazing as in repeat spell. though i would get meta magic reducers on twin, and quicken.

So, Twin, Quicken, Heighten, PM: Twin, PM: Quicken...meh, unless there are some PrC's with bonus feats that I'm not aware of, that's already too many. Or would you recommend I dump the metamagic I've already got?

Meta magic reducers. metamagic school focus is one. as well as the pick a spell feat and meta magic cost one less for said spell(its name eludes me at the moment)

Practical Metamagic. I may stick with the Metamagic School Focus because of the aforementioned problem with running out of feats. But what school makes an effective focus? Maybe Illusion, since that's where Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration are (i.e. where the versatility is)...

Also at 3rd level i would drop the sleep for some thing else
some sugestions would be ray of enfeeblement or magic missle

Oh, that's getting retrained at 4th level when it becomes useless. Possibly to Mage Armor/Shield--especially the latter if I start thinking harder about Abjurant Champion. But it may go to a ray spell, in which case another 1st-level slot will have to go to True Strike, given my abysmal Dex.

[Math_Mage]

Is there a reason why you are taking silent spell, invisible spell and eschew components? These are fairly weak feats (though I admit silent spell may have some use if you suddenly find yourself in a silence spell).

For decent metamagic feats, heighten is definitely useful, as is quicken, though I wouldn't be in a hurry to pick them up. Extend is always neat (but may be superfluous if you can acquire a metamagic rod). Empower isn't too shabby either.

I would also recommend scrapping the familiar. Too much effort spent keeping it alive for too little benefit, IMO. You don't really have a lot of feats to spare anyways.

Other than this, your strength really lies in your spell selection, so you don't really need to worry too much about your feats.

Eschew Materials is a prerequisite for Fiend-Blooded. Silent Spell and Invisible Spell are partly placeholders, partly flavorful. If there's better crunchy meta, I'll take it--but what makes sense at level 1, really? Heighten, since it can be at least marginally useful early? I'm not sure.

And yes, that is my concern about the familiar.

[RagnaroksChosen]

The only advantage of speaking that I'm aware of is UMD, and a skill point-starved sorcerer with UMD cross-class isn't going to make much use of that. Is there something else I should be aware of? Else I'm looking at owl.

No UMD and the ability to have it relay messages is about it.

Even after metamagic specialist, eh? Or is that 'instead of'?

instead of, mainly because you won't be gaining or loosing a feat if you do.

So, Twin, Quicken, Heighten, PM: Twin, PM: Quicken...meh, unless there are some PrC's with bonus feats that I'm not aware of, that's already too many. Or would you recommend I dump the metamagic I've already got?

I would PM only one of the two prolly quicken though reducing twin to a +2 metamagic is nice. IT realy depends yif you plan on doing alot of BC then widen would be more applicable then twin or quicken.

Practical Metamagic. I may stick with the Metamagic School Focus because of the aforementioned problem with running out of feats. But what school makes an effective focus? Maybe Illusion, since that's where Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration are (i.e. where the versatility is)...

It realy depends on where you want to go with this build.

Oh, that's getting retrained at 4th level when it becomes useless. Possibly to Mage Armor/Shield--especially the latter if I start thinking harder about Abjurant Champion. But it may go to a ray spell, in which case another 1st-level slot will have to go to True Strike, given my abysmal Dex.

I would say that sleep is usless after 2nd level, though that depends on the gm and if they throw alot of lower level stuff at you.
true strikes not bad. i would grab some thing else if your worried about hitting. like Magic missle.(great spell by the way)

[Vizzerdrix]

Look at the spells you are going to want to use and look for what ones combo well with what meta magic. Lots of save spells? Heighten. Touch spells abound? Reach spell. Etc.

Don't bother with the Rapid MMs as your class variant will make normal meta magics work fine.

If you are going to have a familiar, then I'd recommend getting an Improved familiar. Mephits are versatile and tough enough to be a good investment. Earth Mephit can even function as a body guard if you give it equipment. And the little ferret people from BoED can both heal and cast magic missiles, and are sneaky.

All familiars get the ability to speak with their master so I fail to see what the raven has going for it.

You may want to look into the Sand Shaper PrC for a good handful of free buff spells. Also the Mother cyst and cerebrosis feats each add 11 good spells to your list.

[Kylarra]

Invisible spell is fun, but make sure you actually talk to your DM about the implications there, else you might be trying something that your DM will just look at you funny for.

[RagnaroksChosen]

Look at the spells you are going to want to use and look for what ones combo well with what meta magic. Lots of save spells? Heighten. Touch spells abound? Reach spell. Etc.

Don't bother with the Rapid MMs as your class variant will make normal meta magics work fine.

If you are going to have a familiar, then I'd recommend getting an Improved familiar. Mephits are versatile and tough enough to be a good investment. Earth Mephit can even function as a body guard if you give it equipment. And the little ferret people from BoED can both heal and cast magic missiles, and are sneaky.

All familiars get the ability to speak with their master so I fail to see what the raven has going for it.

You may want to look into the Sand Shaper PrC for a good handful of free buff spells. Also the Mother cyst and cerebrosis feats each add 11 good spells to your list.

Along the lines of what he said. Imps are great improved familars to mainly for the fast healing.

[Cyrion]

I usually get Extend at first level because- 1) it's cheap to apply and useful early (though not immediately, especially for a sorcerer) and 2) what I'm really after is Sculpt Spell (typically 3rd level) which requires a metamagic feat as a prerequisite. Sculpt is probably my most used feat.

Improved Ititiative is great for a mage because it lets you go first more often- great for getting something useful off or for running first if that's necessary.

I know conventional wisdom is against me here, but I'd say don't bother with either mage armor or shield especially as a sorcerer. By the time mage armor has a useful duration, it's obsolete. Shield never has a useful duration so you have to waste your first action putting it up. I've always found not being in a position to be a target to be much more effective than Shield. Also, those two spells waste precious spell slots. You're much better off going Mage of the Arcane Order at some point and casting Greater Mage Armor from the spell pool.

[Saph]

A few minor issues:

• At level 3, Sleep is getting to the point where it's not much use anymore - too many things have 5+ HD. You might want to consider Colour Spray instead, or maybe Mage Armour (which is surprisingly useful up to quite high levels).
• You can't retrain a 1st-level spell at level 4. You can only retrain a cantrip. You won't be able to retrain your 1st-level spell until level 6.
• Metamagic is pretty useless at the level you're at. It does come in handy for a Sorcerer later on, but be aware that spending your early feats on metamagic is very much a long-term investment.
• Your 1st-level spells will run out after 30 seconds of combat, so make sure you have something to do in a fight once they're gone - scrolls, thrown weapons, a crossbow, etc.

Bear in mind how fragile you are. At low levels Sorcerers are quite weak and have to spend a lot of time hiding behind the beefier party members. You're essentially a fairly limited specialist without much endurance. Don't expect too much.

[Ernir]

Question 1: Is the familiar worth burning the feat? How about another on, say, Combat Familiar or Improved Familiar or Spell-linked Familiar later on? Keep in mind that at least one later feat slot is already taken up by Blood Calls to Blood later on, for Fiend-blooded.
Question 2: Should I be getting good metamagic some other way, like Rapid Metamagic or Arcane Preparation?
Question 3: What metamagic should I definitely slot in at higher levels besides Heighten and Quicken?
Question 4: Am I missing blindingly obvious stuff here?

I'd like to be at, er, about 80% optimization, if such a thing can be expressed in percentages. I'm looking to help mold the campaign, but not to break it.

Thanks!

Oookay.
I'd switch out one of your current feats for Blood Calls to Blood. Your next feat won't arrive until level 6, which means taking it then would delay your entry into Fiend-Blooded by one level. I presume you want to get into the PrC ASAP, so you better take care of the prereqs now.

Now, you said you wanted 80% optimization, and you have expressed an interest in metamagic. I'd say that means 3 levels of Incantatrix (Player's Guide to Faerûn). Not taking all 10 levels means you won't be tossing out the infamous Orbs of Doom (1000+ damage orbs of force or fire, usually). It could, however, massively increase your ability to buff yourself and your allies, AKA keep y'all alive.
You could get into Archmage if you shuffle some feats around, but it is definitely not a no-brainer. The feat tax is considerable. Only if you want to get two spell focuses anyway would I seriously consider it.
I also say that at only 80% optimization, you should stay the hell away from Tainted Scholar (HoH, the same book as Fiend-Blooded).


So, I think your late-game build could look something like this:

Progression:
Sorcerer 5/Fiend-Blooded 9/Incantatrix 3/Whateveryouwantuntilthegameisover +.

Human: Eschew Materials
Flaw: Improved Initiative
Flaw: Silent Spell (recommendation: Blood Calls to Blood instead)
1st: Invisible Spell
3rd: Obtain Familiar
6th: Heighten Spell
Visit the Otyugh Hole sometime around here to get Iron Will to qualify for Incantatrix
9th: Extend Spell
12th: Quicken Spell
Incantatrix 1: Persist Spell (If you don't take Incantatrix, I suggest you skip this entirely, possibly Extend as well)
15th and 18th: Open!


Now, you had some actual questions...

Answer 1: Familiars are handy. I wouldn't bother with improving it with feats, however. Might consider grabbing Imbue Familiar with Spell Ability, IIRC a 6th level SpC spell.
Answer 2: The MM specialist ACF is perfectly serviceable, you don't really need more. Also, it mixes wonderfully with Arcane Spellsurge (Dragon Magic). If you think you aren't powerful enough when you get access to it, just take it and see your power skyrocket.
Answer 3: Honestly, I don't think you need much more metamagic focus. If you want more... uh, my favourites are Split Ray, Ocular Spell (for blasting) and Sculpt Spell (for battlefield control). Metamagic can be good, but it is definitely not a "you must get as much as you can" type of deal. I'd try to get a metamagic cost reducer or two before going for more feats.
Answer 4: Naaaaah. Just remember to pick your spells more carefully than anything else. They are the real source of your power, not feats or PrCs.

[LichPrinceAlim]

I say, and have always said that Nonverbal Spell out of Planar handbook 100% beats Silent Spell.

and forget Eschew Materials. It's a trap. If you are casting in High levels, you still need components...

I'd say pick up a few metamagic and metamagic reducers, and forget fiend blooded. It's nice, but I personally don't allow PrCs and BCs that give you a Template

[Greenish]

Shouldn't optimization levels be expressed on logarithmic scale?

I personally don't allow PrCs and BCs that give you a Template

Why not?

[unre9istered]

If your taking Obtain Familiar, the you can trade the Familiar you get for free for the Meta-magic Specialist ACF from PHBII. This would let you use meta-magic 3+Int mod times per day without increasing the casting time (specifically allowing the use of Quickened spells).

[Greenish]

If your taking Obtain Familiar, the you can trade the Familiar you get for free for the Meta-magic Specialist ACF from PHBII. This would let you use meta-magic 3+Int mod times per day without increasing the casting time (specifically allowing the use of Quickened spells).

Great idea! I wonder why OP didn't figure it out… oh wait.

[LichPrinceAlim]

Why not?

I belive that heritage templates are too powerful to just be given with even 10 levels. Now, as for Lich, Dry Lich, and others of the like, I place more stipulations on them because I refuse to let anyone who wants to become undead and retain their alignment go off scott free. I make them APPEAR evil and have villagers/guards/animals/ect attack them randomly

[Eloel]

I say, and have always said that Nonverbal Spell out of Planar handbook 100% beats Silent Spell.

Except, if you're not polymorphing alot, it's useless.

(A silence spell still would prevent you from completing the spell, for example.)

The only use I can think for that feat besides polymorphing, is when Natural Spell is banned, and you want to cast spells as a freaking druid bear.

[Greenish]

I belive that heritage templates are too powerful to just be given with even 10 levels.

What, Green Star Adept is too powerful?

I can't think of any template-giving class that would be game-breakingly strong, can you give any examples?

[Jacob Orlove]

2) what I'm really after is Sculpt Spell (typically 3rd level) which requires a metamagic feat as a prerequisite. Sculpt is probably my most used feat.

Sculpt Spell is an absurdly good feat. You already have Grease, you can grab Web, Glitterdust, or Cloud of Bewilderment later, and then just Sculpt when necessary. Definitely grab it if you're planning to take at least one other metamagic feat. It's like having extra high level spells to choose from.

One tip if you're starting from level one, and taking Extend as your Sculpt prerequisite, is to take Daze as one of your Cantrips. An Extended Daze makes them lose two rounds, which can be well worth the 1st level slot. It's not really worth doing at third level (as Saph said, too many 5HD+ opponents), but it's a nice trick to get an extra spell effect when you start out.

[RagnaroksChosen]

What, Green Star Adept is too powerful?

I can't think of any template-giving class that would be game-breakingly strong, can you give any examples?

the one that turns you intoa dry lich. sandshaper or something

[Optimystik]

the one that turns you intoa dry lich. sandshaper or something

The lich one is Walker in the Wastes.

Sandshaper just gives you an assload lots of spells.

[RagnaroksChosen]

The lich one is Walker in the Wastes.

Sandshaper just gives you an assload lots of spells.

ya thats what i ment thanks, i couldn't remember which one...

[Greenish]

the one that turns you intoa dry lich. sandshaper or something

Walker of the Waste loses a caster level or two, I seem to recall. How is that going to break a game?

[Edit]: Oh, and I understood he allowed WotW "with some stipulations".

[Optimystik]

I say, and have always said that Nonverbal Spell out of Planar handbook 100% beats Silent Spell.

Depends on if your DM lets you grunt/click through a gag. If not, Silent is better.

Also, Silence stops Nonverbal Spell, and you can be detected just fine with it. It stops the words, not the noise.

[jiriku]

I kinda see where you're going with Eschew Material, Silent Spell and Invisible spell, but I kinda wonder if that's of enough use to justify a three-feat existence. Hiding your spellcasting can be useful in social situations or when under greater invisbility, but if you're interested in raw combat power or spell versatility, there are better feat choices.

I highly recommend Sculpt Spell. Sculpting greatly increases the effectiveness of area spells like grease and hail of stone, and allows you to still catch a minimum of four targets when using higher-level AoE's like fireball against opponents who are smart enough to spread out. It's also a convenient way to avoid friendly fire.

If you're planning to get Obtain Familiar, trade your default familiar for an ACF like Metamagic Specialist (PH2) or Draconic Heritage (RoD). (Draconic Heritage will qualify you for Practical Metamagic, an extremely valuable feat).

[Math_Mage]

Easy ones first.

Lots of people didn't notice that I took the Metamagic Specialist ACF already. Just wanna put that out there again.

I say, and have always said that Nonverbal Spell out of Planar handbook 100% beats Silent Spell.

and forget Eschew Materials. It's a trap. If you are casting in High levels, you still need components...

I'd say pick up a few metamagic and metamagic reducers, and forget fiend blooded. It's nice, but I personally don't allow PrCs and BCs that give you a Template

Maybe the fact that Eschew Materials is required for Fiend-Blooded will dampen your hostility towards it. At any rate, Fiend-Blooded is significantly less powerful than many prestige classes I *could* be taking, and, er, this isn't your campaign. I very specifically cleared FB with the DM (who was enthusiastic), which might have been noted from the house rule in the OP.

Ok. On to others.

I was worried about taking Incantatrix, mostly because descriptions of it range from 'insanely useful' to 'absurdly cheesy'. If taking three levels instead of ten helps cut down on that, it sounds like a good time. Speaking of cheese, though, visiting a well that may not exist in this campaign world to get a free feat smells suspiciously like it (even if the free feat is Iron Will).

In light of that, I may end up dumping the familiar after all. Depends on what I want to fit in.

Sleep doesn't do much at this level, got it. Will trade. Maybe Mage Armor, maybe Magic Missile.

Getting the Dragonblood subtype through ACFs or just about anything else would be just a little too implausible, flavorfully speaking, given that the character is already descended from a fiend (that, at least, is entirely likely in this campaign setting). That cuts out Practical Metamagic, sadly. Good thing there's still options like MM School Focus and Easy Metamagic to fall back on in tough times.

As for the meta itself, Sculpt sounds like a good addition. I'll fiddle around with the build until things work out.

[Greenish]

Getting the Dragonblood subtype through ACFs or just about anything else would be just a little too implausible

Isn't spellscale dragonblooded? It only requires you to have arcane casters in your family, so shouldn't be that far fetched.

[Math_Mage]

Isn't spellscale dragonblooded? It only requires you to have arcane casters in your family, so shouldn't be that far fetched.

Is it? Thanks, I'll look into it. Except...that -2 penalty to Contitution is going to hurt like, er, something that hurts a lot, given that I only have 12 health to play around with as it is.

[Emmerask]

Hm I seem to be the only one that actually likes silent spell. I play a wiz atm without it and there where a lot of situations where it could have helped a lot.

But I guess it depends on your playstyle if it´s actually useful if you plan on infiltrating stuff or being sneaky it def has its uses.

Silently dominating the captain who is currently guarding the throne room with his men and let him order them to check the stables works much better then if the guards hear ancient incantations and get the order after that ^^