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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    My player and I are thinking about making potions require a move action to use, which can be combined with retrieving the item from wherever you carry it.
    Is this proposed houserule vulnerable to abuse, or otherwise a bad idea?

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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    My player and I are thinking about making potions require a move action to use, which can be combined with retrieving the item from wherever you carry it.
    Is this proposed houserule vulnerable to abuse, or otherwise a bad idea?
    Well, Move Actions normally don't have combat use; being able to buff through Move Actions with Potions actually makes them ironically better than the actual spells for that purpose... So...well, it's a hairy matter.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Well, Move Actions normally don't have combat use; being able to buff through Move Actions with Potions actually makes them ironically better than the actual spells for that purpose... So...well, it's a hairy matter.
    It also makes less players forced into a being a healbot, and actually buy some potions.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    I don't see it getting too much abuse as long as you can't drink multiples in one round.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    I'd say give it a shot, and if it turns out to be abusable, put some restrictions on it (or return to RAW).
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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinydwarfman View Post
    It also makes less players forced into a being a healbot, and actually buy some potions.
    It works fine for healing potions; the issue is every other damn type of Potion ever, especially ones used for buffing. Suddenly it's advantageous to use your Move Action to buff instead of ever casting buff spells via. swift or standard actions, and you generally get potions even as a caster capable of casting the same spells.

    Besides, the Healbot-"issue" is mostly negated by Healing Belts and Wands of Cure Light Wounds/Lesser Vigor.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    I rather thought that the cost of potions would offset the added utility for buffs. Not the case?
    As things stand potions just don't seem effective, since it's basically a full round action and up to two attacks of opportunity to use one, and all you get is the effect of a low level spell that would have been a standard action to cast.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    It works fine for healing potions; the issue is every other damn type of Potion ever, especially ones used for buffing. Suddenly it's advantageous to use your Move Action to buff instead of ever casting buff spells via. swift or standard actions, and you generally get potions even as a caster capable of casting the same spells.

    Besides, the Healbot-"issue" is mostly negated by Healing Belts and Wands of Cure Light Wounds/Lesser Vigor.
    Meh, the potion will have a really low CL, and will still be way too expensive. A potion still costs double what a scroll does, so I don't think it will matter too much. Make it only for healing if you want though.

    I know there is no issue, but many groups still force a player into playing a healer, and this will be an obvious counter to that.

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    Colossus in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Yeah, Potions are a bit weak, and in that sense, the cost might indeed balance it out. Just, the issue is that at the present, there's no way to effectively act offensively or defensively with your move action. You can reposition yourself and be in a more optimal position on the battlefield, but you can't take an actual combat action with the move action (outside very few exceptions...like, Dark Knowledge and...that's about it). With this, you could. As such, I'd be wary; though I can't say for sure if it'd have a negative or a positive impact upon the game having never tried it myself. Just, on a general level, making move actions do something else than...well, move, never seems to work out that well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinydwarfman View Post
    Meh, the potion will have a really low CL, and will still be way too expensive. A potion still costs double what a scroll does, so I don't think it will matter too much. Make it only for healing if you want though.

    I know there is no issue, but many groups still force a player into playing a healer, and this will be an obvious counter to that.
    I don't think this really solves it though, due to the aforementioned "cost"-issue; it's just not really sustainable to heal with Potions in the long run. Having the option of emergency healing with potions might (or might not, due to how little they heal) be beneficial, but who knows.
    Last edited by Eldariel; 2010-03-17 at 12:09 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    It is a major power boost. In terms of action economy it's free power. It will also discourage players from moving around, which will suck for melee compared to others. Even so, the game will likely still be playable with this boost. Up to you.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Oh well, I don't want another power boost, especially one that helps casters more than melee. I guess it's a nice idea but not a practical one. Thanks all.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    I allow a 'masterwork potion belt' (I picture it as a strap diagonally across the chest) with four slots, which allows the character to draw and drink a potion as a move action. Still provokes AoO.

    Players have never abused it, but I can see how it could be. Most times its used in combat for a quick heal. But it does allow less reliance on others for emergent healing.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Personally I'd make it a swift action.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    If you want to give the enemy the ability to make 2 AoOs against you in 1 round, be my guest.

    Now, if activating a healing belt were a move action...

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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Myou View Post
    Oh well, I don't want another power boost, especially one that helps casters more than melee. I guess it's a nice idea but not a practical one. Thanks all.
    Wait, you hear one person say it's a power boost for casters and call it off?
    How is it more of a boost to casters anyway?

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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    I didn't say casters really, I said people who don't need their move action to move, i.e. not melee. From there it must have been obvious. Even archers like their move actions for full attacks leaving, well, nobody else.

    Changing it to a swift action would even things up a bit. Especially since casters like to use swifts for quicken spells and melee depends on items to have swift actions at all. It's still basically free power in terms of action economy, as you still get your full 5 rounds (or however long it is) of combat to do other things. I mean potions aren't that expensive, especially later on.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-03-17 at 08:04 PM.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    I didn't say casters really, I said people who don't need their move action to move, i.e. not melee. From there it must have been obvious. Even archers like their move actions for full attacks leaving, well, nobody else.

    Changing it to a swift action would even things up a bit. Especially since casters like to use swifts for quicken spells and melee depends on items to have swift actions at all. It's still basically free power in terms of action economy, as you still get your full 5 rounds (or however long it is) of combat to do other things. I mean potions aren't that expensive, especially later on.
    Yes, but generally, Melee NEEDS the healing, and move action lets them attack and still heal. Swift would be better, but that completely ruins the realism for me. Chugging it in 3 seconds is bad enough.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    But for the casters it's a free +2 to their spell save DCs at low levels. At high levels it's a free invisibility every round; even if they broke the last round invisibility by casting. They pay nothing for it. Melee pays in either lost full attacks or lost charges. And I think both melee and casters can be in danger of dying.

    I like how that assumption on danger always switches depending on the discussion topic. Like whenever talking about melee defense people assume the monsters avoid the melee entirely and go after the casters (as if the melee could care less about protecting anyone but himself). Whenever talking about casters people say they have a million protection spells so they never get hit.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2010-03-17 at 08:20 PM.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
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    TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
    Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
    Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles and other terrain stuff (100 MB)

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    How about putting a plunger and needle on the potion vial? Swift action for intravenous application, a vial is no bigger than ammo which is free to grab and jabbing it into your arm shouldn't be too far from a swift action.

    Maybe add 1d4 damage for balance.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Like whenever talking about melee defense people assume the monsters avoid the melee entirely and go after the casters (as if the melee could care less about protecting anyone but himself). Whenever talking about casters people say they have a million protection spells so they never get hit.
    The monsters vie with melee to see which can look more useless while the casters kill them :)

    People like me don't talk about melee defense though ... I talk about melee offense. A monster should fight melee offense because it's a credible threat, not because it's a hitpoint wall which somehow should protect the caster. If the melee is not offense then yes, the monster should go for the caster even if he has a hard time hitting him. For the very simple reason that the melee is irrelevant.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by PinkysBrain View Post
    The monsters vie with melee to see which can look more useless while the casters kill them :)

    People like me don't talk about melee defense though ... I talk about melee offense. A monster should fight melee offense because it's a credible threat, not because it's a hitpoint wall which somehow should protect the caster. If the melee is not offense then yes, the monster should go for the caster even if he has a hard time hitting him. For the very simple reason that the melee is irrelevant.
    And, you know, the melee might be the only target. Fly. Goodbye =)

    I do your point with the invisibility. At that high level though (for the potions not to be huge drain), wizard just casts greater invisibility and can actually move. It is a balance issue I haven't encountered because we just used healing potions. Strange. I don't think the party has ever actually gotten a buff potion for one reason or another...

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    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinydwarfman View Post
    Yes, but generally, Melee NEEDS the healing, and move action lets them attack and still heal. Swift would be better, but that completely ruins the realism for me. Chugging it in 3 seconds is bad enough.
    Chug what? It's 1oz of liquid, one swallow. The problem would be getting the stopper off faster than that. Now, when you put together the time to remove the stopper, raise it to your lips, and down the shot, then it starts taking some time, but it's because of the process not the "chugging".

    I agree that potions generally suck for a standard action, but I also agree that they're too good for a swift action, and possibly too good for a move action. You could always make a feat I suppose.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    Chug what? It's 1oz of liquid, one swallow. The problem would be getting the stopper off faster than that. Now, when you put together the time to remove the stopper, raise it to your lips, and down the shot, then it starts taking some time, but it's because of the process not the "chugging".

    I agree that potions generally suck for a standard action, but I also agree that they're too good for a swift action, and possibly too good for a move action. You could always make a feat I suppose.
    I know, I was talking about getting it out mostly, how fast can you pull out a bottle of water, remove the cap and take a sip? I find it unrealistic, 'chugging' was just for emphasis to replace drinking.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Sometimes when I go jogging, I see these people carrying sort of water pack on their back, with a tube that they can suck water out of as the need arises.

    Couldn't adventurers invent something similar, so they can fight while sipping potions from medipacks strapped to various parts of their bodies?

    Anyways, complete mage has this feat which lets you drink a potion first, delay its effect by up to one hour and reactivate it when you need it as a free action.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Delay Potion, I believe, stores potions for CON modifier hours and activates as a swift action. You can delay one at a time.
    Last edited by Deepblue706; 2010-03-17 at 09:10 PM.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    But for the casters it's a free +2 to their spell save DCs at low levels. At high levels it's a free invisibility every round; even if they broke the last round invisibility by casting. They pay nothing for it. Melee pays in either lost full attacks or lost charges. And I think both melee and casters can be in danger of dying.

    I like how that assumption on danger always switches depending on the discussion topic. Like whenever talking about melee defense people assume the monsters avoid the melee entirely and go after the casters (as if the melee could care less about protecting anyone but himself). Whenever talking about casters people say they have a million protection spells so they never get hit.
    First off, at low levels, popping a potion of fox's cunning and similar spells isn't free at all. A 2nd level spell potion is 300gp, and 150gp to craft. If you're chugging one of those constantly, you're looking at loosing at least 150gp/fight. That's not free at all. Is it worth it in some fights? Yeah, definitely. Is it free? Not hardly.

    Personally I don't really see the problem. At high levels casters can sport "free" invisibility in the form of greater invisibility which lasts a long time. Spending a move or even swift action every round to chug a potion doesn't seem very effective to me; especially considering how easy it is at those levels to ignore invisibility or simply dispel it.

    I see this actually benefiting melee types more than caster types in virtually every respect. Most low level spells (remember, potions have a level cap) that are worth casting are buffs and protection based spells. Melee classes also sport little extra to do with their move and swift actions other than move (while other types of characters can do fun things with those actions).

    Truthfully, the biggest possible threat by making a move or standard action would be unusual potions; such as potions of fireball or grease or similar spells which are interesting to make into potions as custom items for fun and flavor; since this would allow you to effectively use offensive actions with your move actions, then you'd have a problem. But if you don't have such items in your game anyway; I don't see how it benefits casters so much, when melee gets more use out of low level buffs.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldariel View Post
    Just, the issue is that at the present, there's no way to effectively act offensively or defensively with your move action.
    Things you can do in combat with a move action:

    Cloak Dance (XPH): gain concealment
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    Goad (MiniHB): lousier version of Knight's Challenge
    Handle Animal: direct an animal to perform a trick it knows
    Direct a spell, such as spiritual weapon (Hammersphere) or unseen servant (Collar of Perpetual Attendance)
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    What about using capsules to hold the potion?

    It would only allow one potion to be used in combat as a swift action once per encounter. Well unless your character can somehow manage to get the capsule retainer out of his/her mouth and refill it.

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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    First off, at low levels, popping a potion of fox's cunning and similar spells isn't free at all. A 2nd level spell potion is 300gp, and 150gp to craft. If you're chugging one of those constantly, you're looking at loosing at least 150gp/fight. That's not free at all. Is it worth it in some fights? Yeah, definitely. Is it free? Not hardly.

    Personally I don't really see the problem. At high levels casters can sport "free" invisibility in the form of greater invisibility which lasts a long time. Spending a move or even swift action every round to chug a potion doesn't seem very effective to me; especially considering how easy it is at those levels to ignore invisibility or simply dispel it.

    I see this actually benefiting melee types more than caster types in virtually every respect. Most low level spells (remember, potions have a level cap) that are worth casting are buffs and protection based spells. Melee classes also sport little extra to do with their move and swift actions other than move (while other types of characters can do fun things with those actions).

    Truthfully, the biggest possible threat by making a move or standard action would be unusual potions; such as potions of fireball or grease or similar spells which are interesting to make into potions as custom items for fun and flavor; since this would allow you to effectively use offensive actions with your move actions, then you'd have a problem. But if you don't have such items in your game anyway; I don't see how it benefits casters so much, when melee gets more use out of low level buffs.
    Actually, scratch that last bit. Such unusual potions would require them as attack rolls like grenade-like weapons, which makes them default to standard actions anyway; so my previous warning was a moot one.
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    Default Re: [3.5] Activating potions as a move action.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ashiel View Post
    Actually, scratch that last bit. Such unusual potions would require them as attack rolls like grenade-like weapons, which makes them default to standard actions anyway; so my previous warning was a moot one.
    They'd require them to be Wondrous Items, specifically. One of the defining traits of a potion is that the spell is cast on the user, and they have to be ingested (or otherwise unambiguously consumed by a single person in the case of other Potion-Like Items.) A potion of Fireball casts Fireball centered on the person who drinks it; if you throw it, you just get a spilled potion.

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