Dragonwrought

[Kuzimu]

What exactly does being a dragonwrought kobold get you? Could I get a full list? I'm making one and I just want to know exactly what it's good for. All I know is that it can be used for some major cheese, but what else does it get you?

[Sinfire Titan]

1: Access to the Greater Rite of Passage feat.

2: Theoretical access to Loredrake.

3: Anywhere from +1 to +3 bonus to all Mental stats (Drawback: Shorter life span, but you don't take the Physical penalties).

4: Polymorph/Alter Self shenanigans.

[Tinydwarfman]

I do believe this describes it quite accurately.

Hey, do you wanna feel so powerful? Try DRAGONWROUGHT! A feat for people who need gratuitous amounts of stats. With all new flavors like DESERT KOBOLD. Kobold without CON minuses, it’s like adding awesome to an awesome storm. Sound the alarm, you’re gonna be UNCOMFORTABLY POWERFUL!

What’s that? You want FREE SORCEROR LEVELS? Well how about DRAGONWROUGHT + LOREDRAKE!!! Made with DRAGONS, true DRAGONS. Magic! AAAAAAAHHHHH! You’ll be good at it. It’s a feat for kobolds. Koboldfeet! These aren’t your dad’s puns, these are Magic puns. POWERpuns.

Magic, power, magic, power, +3 INT, +3 WIS, +3 CHA, MORE STATS THAN YOUR BODY HAS ROOM FOR!!! You’ll be so powerful, the DM will be like, “Sloooooowwww dooowwwwnn.” And you’ll be like, “**** you!” and kick him in the face with your natural weapons!

You’ll have so much power, POWER! AAAAAHHHH! just running all the time. Power spellcasting! Power skillpoints! Power Will saves! Power multiattacking! Power AC! Power gaming! Power spawning babies! You’ll have so many babies. 400 babies.

Give DRAGONWROUGHT to your babies and they’ll be as good at everything! Make your babies abnormally powerful. They’ll be as powerful as DRAGONS. People will watch them dungeoncrawling and think they’re DRAGONS. They’ll kill as fast as DRAAGONS, in a fight with actual DRAGONS, and it’ll be a tie, and they’ll get hunted down by Dragonslayers!

Hey, go with the sure thing. Don’t gamble on your Power (snake eyes!). Try DRAGONWROUGHT, the feat that will make you (aaahhh!) POWER(aaahhh!).

[Kuzimu]

Ahhhh...Where's the greater rite of passage feat?

Where's Loredrake?

Thank you.

[Tinydwarfman]

Ahhhh...Where's the greater rite of passage feat?

Where's Loredrake?

Thank you.

1. Web Enhancement

2. It's an Eberron sovereign archetype. All true dragons get them at no cost. Much debate about whether this works.

[Sinfire Titan]

2. It's an Eberron sovereign archetype. All true dragons get them at no cost. Much debate about whether this works.

Hence the "Theoretical" part.

[magic9mushroom]

Dragonwrought gets you access to things that require the Dragon type (and immunity to effects that only work on humanoids), as well as the removal of aging penalties and a couple of skill bonuses.

Greater Draconic Rite of Passage does NOT require Dragonwrought.

There is the whole thing about Sovereign Archetypes, which are awesome sets of abilities true dragons can take (Dragons of Eberron; one gives +2 levels of Sorc casting, another gives a free feat every four levels, etcetera), but there's a massive debate over whether Dragonwrought Kobolds actually are true dragons. I'm in the "no" camp.

Besides the whole Sovereign Archetype thing, the main awesome things are the free bonuses to Int/Wis/Cha if you start as Venerable, and the Dragon type.

[Tinydwarfman]

Hence the "Theoretical" part.

I know. Just saying it again seeing as I think it's ridiculous and doesn't even work by RAW.

[Sinfire Titan]

There is the whole debate about Sovereign Archetypes, which are awesome sets of abilities true dragons can take (Dragons of Eberron), but there's a massive debate over whether Dragonwrought Kobolds actually are true dragons. I'm in the "no" camp.

Personally, if a player came up to me and said he wanted to play a Jade Phoenix Mage Wyrm of War Dragonwrought Kobold, I'd let him. He's giving up Sorcerer spells known for Tiger Claw maneuvers, hardly an equal trade.

Loredrake? No. Wyrm of War? Sure. A few of the others? Possibly.

[Greenish]

What exactly does being a dragonwrought kobold get you? Could I get a full list? I'm making one and I just want to know exactly what it's good for. All I know is that it can be used for some major cheese, but what else does it get you?

The bonuses are three-fold:

1. You don't take aging penalties to physical stats, so feel free to get +3 on all mental stats. (Aging yourself to Venerable [or to Great Wyrm, since you use dragon age categories].)
2. Your creature type changes to dragon: feel free to enjoy alter self, hold person won't work on you etc.
3. You might be able to take sovereign archetypes from Eberron, which will be free bonuses for you. This one is often debated, and unless you're running a very high-power campaign your DM will probably disallow this.

Also, you get to be an awesome kobold.

[magic9mushroom]

Personally, if a player came up to me and said he wanted to play a Jade Phoenix Mage Wyrm of War Dragonwrought Kobold, I'd let him. He's giving up Sorcerer spells known for Tiger Claw maneuvers, hardly an equal trade.

Loredrake? No. Wyrm of War? Sure. A few of the others? Possibly.

"Wyrm of War swaps sorc spells for maneuvers/stances" is a variant, the normal one is just a straight power upgrade to the tune of a feat every 4 levels and proficiency with all armour/weapons (not that the latter's much use).

And Jade Phoenix Mage is pretty powerful itself.

[BenTheJester]

Don't forget epic feats pre-epic

[Sinfire Titan]

"Wyrm of War swaps sorc spells for maneuvers/stances" is a variant, the normal one is just a straight power upgrade to the tune of a feat every 4 levels and proficiency with all armour/weapons (not that the latter's much use).

And Jade Phoenix Mage is pretty powerful itself.

Both are Sovereign Archtypes. Technically, Loredrake does have a tradeoff: Lowering your racial HD from d12s to d10s. The thing is that this usually won't apply to a Kobold.


JPM isn't that powerful really. It's considered above EK, but it is below Sky Mage and Abjurant Champion (both of which are +2 PrCs; JPM is +1).

Don't forget epic feats pre-epic

This one is just plain cheating though. Epic feats all have an additional requirement: 21HD. Old Dragons usually do have that many HD, the text in the Draconomicon was reminding DMs that HD counts as Class Levels for the purposes of Epic feats. It was just worded horribly.

[Tinydwarfman]

Both are Sovereign Archtypes. Technically, Loredrake does have a tradeoff: Lowering your racial HD from d12s to d10s. The thing is that this usually won't apply to a Kobold.


JPM isn't that powerful really. It's considered above EK, but it is below Sky Mage and Abjurant Champion (both of which are +2 PrCs; JPM is +1).



This one is just plain cheating though. Epic feats all have an additional requirement: 21HD. Old Dragons usually do have that many HD, the text in the Draconomicon was reminding DMs that HD counts as Class Levels for the purposes of Epic feats. It was just worded horribly.

Sky Mage? I haven't heard of it. Where is it from?

[Sinfire Titan]

Sky Mage? I haven't heard of it. Where is it from?

That isn't the full name; the first part starts with a Z and isn't a word I remember off-hand. 3.0 FR material though.

[TheMadLinguist]

I know. Just saying it again seeing as I think it's ridiculous and doesn't even work by RAW.

Why not? It's obvious the designer of RotD's intent was to make dragonwrought kobolds true dragons for bragging rights.

"BOW BEFORE THE MIGHT OF A TRUE DRAGON, SUCKERS!"


It's just bad luck that some other designer working for eberron didn't know about this, and decided "hey, this game is dungeons and dragons, right? Let's have some variant campaign options for dragons."

[magic9mushroom]

That isn't the full name; the first part starts with a Z and isn't a word I remember off-hand. 3.0 FR material though.

Zhentarim.

Why not? It's obvious the designer of RotD's intent was to make dragonwrought kobolds true dragons for bragging rights.

"BOW BEFORE THE MIGHT OF A TRUE DRAGON, SUCKERS!"


It's just bad luck that some other designer working for eberron didn't know about this, and decided "hey, this game is dungeons and dragons, right? Let's have some variant campaign options for dragons."

Please produce a reference to this effect.

[Radiun]

You could alter self into a

Wyrmling White Dragon (Tiny)
AC: +2natural +2size)
Land 60ft, Burrow 30ft, Fly 150ft (120) (Average), Swim 60ft
And have fun having every movement type

or a

Wyrmling Shadow Dragon (Tiny)
AC: +7natural +2size
Land 80ft(60), fly 150ft(120) (average)

For a useful bump to AC. Not to mention an other +1 size bonus on attacks, being able to squeeze into anywhere a cat could, size bonuses to hide and such, blah blah blah :-P

[Greenish]

, being able to squeeze into anywhere a cat could

Kobolds can already do that.

[Demons_eye]

Please produce a reference to this effect.

Would it matter? Intent is not RAW.

[Eloel]

For a useful bump to AC. Not to mention an other +1 size bonus on attacks, being able to squeeze into anywhere a rat could, size bonuses to hide and such, blah blah blah :-P

Fixed for you

[Radiun]

Fixed for you

Do you keep the Slight Build quality?

[magic9mushroom]

Would it matter? Intent is not RAW.

Indeed it isn't. You still need a reference for that intent, because anyone can make any claims they want about intent.

[Eloel]

Do you keep the Slight Build quality?

You do with wildshape afaik, not sure on poly

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Indeed it isn't. You still need a reference for that intent, because anyone can make any claims they want about intent.

We can guess at the intent, which, to be fair doesn't really get us anywhere overall. That being said, I vaguely recall that the Eberron book with the variant dragon options came out roughly around the same time that Races of the Dragon gave us the wonderful little joy that is Dragonwrought. Although different people worked on the two books, it's possible that whoever worked on RotD did intend for Dragonwrought Kobolds to be True Dragons due to what the other team was working on at the time. Or not, as it's difficult to get intent from someone without either a statement from them or contacting them to get said statement.


So, anyone up for getting a hold of Gwendolyn F.M. Kestrel, Jennifer Clarke Wilkes, and Kolja Raven Liquette?

[JaronK]

Please produce a reference to this effect.

All throughout the Races of the Dragon section on Kobolds, actually. They repeatedly state stuff to this effect. The Draconic Rituals are about awaking the dragon within, for example, and their origin story is that they are the blood that spilled from the first True Dragons. Dragonwrought specifically makes them count as your choice of Chromatic or Metallic.

And RAW? A true dragon is "any dragon with age catagories" according to Dragons of Kyrnn (it's in the feats section, in a feat that gives you special abilities against true dragons). Draconomicon backs this one up on page 4 or 6 in the sidebar on what a dragon is (saying that the difference between less and true dragons is that true dragons get more powerful as they get older and have age catagories while lesser dragons don't get more powerful as they get older and lack age catagories). Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons with Age Catagories who get more powerful as they get older. QED.

As for epic feats, yes, Draconomicon specifically states that old dragons (old or older) qualify for epic feats without needing 21+ HD. So no, it's not cheating, it's raw.

With all that said, I would hope most DMs wouldn't allow the Sovereign Archtypes from Dragons of Eberron. They're overpowered on Kobolds, as they're designed to be on races with LA and HD.

JaronK

[2xMachina]

It's probably:

Nope, Eberron doesn't have Dragonwrought Kobolds.
Nope, this is not Eberron, so no Sovereign Archtypes.

[magic9mushroom]

All throughout the Races of the Dragon section on Kobolds, actually. They repeatedly state stuff to this effect. The Draconic Rituals are about awaking the dragon within, for example, and their origin story is that they are the blood that spilled from the first True Dragons. Dragonwrought specifically makes them count as your choice of Chromatic or Metallic.

And RAW? A true dragon is "any dragon with age catagories" according to Dragons of Kyrnn (it's in the feats section, in a feat that gives you special abilities against true dragons). Draconomicon backs this one up on page 4 or 6 in the sidebar on what a dragon is (saying that the difference between less and true dragons is that true dragons get more powerful as they get older and have age catagories while lesser dragons don't get more powerful as they get older and lack age catagories). Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons with Age Catagories who get more powerful as they get older. QED.

As for epic feats, yes, Draconomicon specifically states that old dragons (old or older) qualify for epic feats without needing 21+ HD. So no, it's not cheating, it's raw.

With all that said, I would hope most DMs wouldn't allow the Sovereign Archtypes from Dragons of Eberron. They're overpowered on Kobolds, as they're designed to be on races with LA and HD.

JaronK

My post in the last thread on this is relevant and you never got a chance to reply before the thread was locked, so I'll just quote it.

I have not read Dragons of Krynn, but Dragons of Krynn information presumably only applies to Dragonlance and is overruled in general by the primary source Draconomicon (just as the ECS rules about clerics not falling are not applicable to campaigns outside Eberron). I have read the relevant passage in Draconomicon multiple times, so please do not call my opinion "uninformed" - though I acknowledge that it is my opinion as there is AFAIK no official statement on the subject.

The passage in Draconomicon says that a True Dragon must:

a) Be a Dragon. I do not contest in any way, shape or form, that a Dragonwrought Kobold is a Dragon. This is fine.

b) Must "become more powerful as they grow older". I contest that Dragonwrought Kobolds fulfill this requirement, since the official (as opposed to practical) representation of power is CR, and Dragonwrought Kobolds do not gain CR automatically as they age (while all other True Dragons I'm aware of do). Obviously, they can gain class levels, which would make them more powerful, but to rule that this ability fulfills the requirement would make all Dragons with an Int of 3 or higher True Dragons, an absurd conclusion, as it is in conflict with the list of Lesser Dragons in Draconomicon itself. Neither do they gain HD or ECL, the other two representations of power that I'm aware of. Hence Dragonwrought Kobolds are not True Dragons, since they do not fit the definition.

c) Must not "not advance through age categories", as this is part of the definition of a lesser dragon. Obviously, this is the flip side of b) above. Again, there are different interpretations of "advance through age categories". The interpretation of "has age categories" again has an absurd conclusion, since it again results in no Dragons that aren't immortal being Lesser Dragons. The interpretation of "advances in CR through age categories" is the best mirror to b) that I can see. Which means that a Dragonwrought Kobold does "not advance through age categories", rendering Dragonwrought Kobolds Lesser Dragons.



I do not "not want it to be true because it's overpowered", and apparently neither does Irreverent Fool, so please do not misrepresent my argument. I've posted at least two threads about cheesy character builds I've created, in fact. I simply do not believe that Dragonwrought Kobolds fulfill the requirements to take Sovereign Archetypes, as they are not True Dragons by RAW.

[JaronK]

I have not read Dragons of Krynn, but Dragons of Krynn information presumably only applies to Dragonlance and is overruled in general by the primary source Draconomicon (just as the ECS rules about clerics not falling are not applicable to campaigns outside Eberron). I have read the relevant passage in Draconomicon multiple times, so please do not call my opinion "uninformed" - though I acknowledge that it is my opinion as there is AFAIK no official statement on the subject.

Well, I can only say that if you read it it's very clear that it's talking about True Dragons in general, not just ones in Dragonlance, much like how the Artificer has abilities that deal with magic items in general, not just ones that are found in Eberron. However, Draconomicon is indeed the primary source on dragons (though Races of the Dragon is the primary source on Kobolds, where it matters).

The passage in Draconomicon says that a True Dragon must:

a) Be a Dragon. I do not contest in any way, shape or form, that a Dragonwrought Kobold is a Dragon. This is fine.

Good. A bunch of people were sure that this wasn't a requirement. One of the counter arguments I saw was that everything counts as a True Dragon, ignoring the fact that you must first off be a dragon.

b) Must "become more powerful as they grow older". I contest that Dragonwrought Kobolds fulfill this requirement, since the official (as opposed to practical) representation of power is CR, and Dragonwrought Kobolds do not gain CR automatically as they age (while all other True Dragons I'm aware of do).

Getting older, a Dragonwrought Kobold gets +3 to all mental stats with no penalties. If you can't see this as getting "more powerful" I'm not sure what to say to you about that. You arbitrarily claim that CR, HD, and ECL are the only measures of power in the game, but I'm not sure why. I've seen no game rule to claim that. I'd imagine if you'd ask most DMs to just gain +3 to all mental stats for free, they'd say no as it's overpowered, unless they thought you needed more power. That strongly suggests getting +3 to half your stats is an increase in power.

And that's all they get for getting older.

c) Must not "not advance through age categories", as this is part of the definition of a lesser dragon. Obviously, this is the flip side of b) above. Again, there are different interpretations of "advance through age categories". The interpretation of "has age categories" again has an absurd conclusion, since it again results in no Dragons that aren't immortal being Lesser Dragons. The interpretation of "advances in CR through age categories" is the best mirror to b) that I can see. Which means that a Dragonwrought Kobold does "not advance through age categories", rendering Dragonwrought Kobolds Lesser Dragons.

Once again, you're making unsupported claims. CR is not what "advances" means in any rule situation. Some creatures (including most True Dragons) have the line "Advancement: By Age" but that doesn't seem to be the same thing as it doesn't say "by age catagory" and the requirement in Draconomicon does not say "Advancement" but rather "advances." If they meant "Advancement: By Age" I imagine they'd have said that. If you look up the definition of "advances" in the dictionary you'd see that one of the acceptable definitions is "moves forward through." Kobolds do indeed move forward through age categories as they age. Note that this would mean that all dragons with age catagories are True Dragons... which is fine, because it agrees with our other source on the topic (Dragons of Kyrnn).

JaronK

[Gametime]

It's probably:

Nope, Eberron doesn't have Dragonwrought Kobolds.
Nope, this is not Eberron, so no Sovereign Archtypes.

I can see the argument for keeping setting-specific material out of games that aren't in that setting (so no Sovereign Archetypes outside of Eberron).

Keeping setting-neutral material out of specific settings is bizarre, though, especially since Dragonwrought Kobolds make perfect sense in a world where dragons are so important.