OOTS #707 - The Discussion Thread

[Shular]

No, I haven't read the prequel books, and so my viewpoint does not take anything in them into consideration.

The answer to whether the commander was morally justified in killing the hobgoblin seems to be "yes he was". The real debate is over the manner in which he did it.

Without knowing the character's backstory, I just can't say. I do like the one suggestion how he made his sense motive check, then played along. Also, perhaps he wanted the hobgoblin killed away from the prisoners' escape route, and so walking him to the other side of the tower was the easiest way to get him there.

[SensFan]

Same question about the prequel books, and do not presume to speak for "we all" when you're actually talking about a group which doesn't include the author of the webcomic.

I have indeed read both. And the fact that they are not always evil does not mean that its not an inherently evil organization.

[BarGamer]

What this comic needed to really head off the "moral justification" flamewar was some kind of back-and-forth opposed "Sense Motive" checks. A few for when the goblin was talking, and several for when the Commander was talking. Even if it was something like the SFX of dice rolling.

Then again, people will argue about anything. I don't really care. Elves ARE awesome. All 17 types of them.

[Kish]

But the point is that the commander isn't evil for neglecting to consider that possibility.

In the same way he wouldn't be wrong if he failed to consider the "possibility" that Vaarsuvius has an alignment other than Chaotic Good, or that Belkar has an alignment other than True Neutral.

Sorry, no. The phrase, "The only good [sapient race] is a dead [sapient race]" pushes anyone who believes it quite firmly southward, alignmentwise. Or "Good" is meaningless. Pick one, but you can't have neither.

I have indeed read both. And the fact that they are not always evil does not mean that its not an inherently evil organization.

...Organization? So being a hobgoblin is something you decide on? Do they have a secret handshake?

The fact that they're a race rather than an organization is what means they're not an inherently evil organization.

[Solara]

no, he took the greater. He could have simply said "I'm sorry but we can't take any chances" and simply stabbed him.

he gave him false hope that he would be allowed to live for the sake of a cruel joke while he pushed him off a building.

This is really the core of the issue for me. But of course, as it's already been stated, the characters themselves basically acknowledged that it would be difficult to try and 'morally justify' what happened to Thanh, so I don't know what there really is to argue about. (Not that that will stop any of us...)

e: This sums up my feelings exactly, and better than I could have ever said it:

Was he wrong to kill the Hobgoblin? Nope. Taking the Hobgoblin prisoner presents it's own risks. Leaving the Hobgoblin to rot in the cell gives anyone who finds him information about those who released the rest (even if he honestly wanted to join up with the elves, he'd probably be a bit spiteful if they left him after releasing the rest). Killing him was the smart thing to do.

But giving him false hope? That was sadistic. The commander did it because he got joy out of it... out of tricking the Hobgoblin into thinking he would have his freedom and then killing him.

Had the commander slit the Hobgoblin's throat and ended it quickly, perhaps explaining that it was a risk he could not take, then I would be defending his choice as the smart thing to do given the circumstances. However, taunting an unarmed prisoner before giving him a cruel death... that pushes it over the line.

[Ranger Mattos]

Roy too (him being Lawful Good). The whole "Belkar in disguise"-saga. Pretty much everyone not Lawful Exalted...

So everyone but a paladin.

I also agree that elves are awesome. All of them. Even drow.

[Sport351]

Great comic as always Mr. Burlew!

I love the paladin's reaction in the last panel.

[SPoD]

I also strongly take issue with the idea that a bastard is "the right tool" for the job. That may be realistic in the sense that it is what happens in the real world, but that is also self-defeating in that it makes the victory hollow.

"May make the victory hollow," is a rather subjective standard that I don't think really gets considered at Elven Command's military strategy meetings.

Just because you wouldn't do something because it would make a victory hollow doesn't mean that other people wouldn't do it and never worry about it. The elven leaders obviously don't mind releasing someone who will kill all goblins he meets into a situation where that's an asset. It is very clearly intended by the author to be Morally Shady (because of the reference to not tell Thanh), but that's what they did. Therefore, we can only conclude that the author is telling us that the elves are Morally Shady.

In other words, the elves lose no sleep over these actions because elves don't sleep.

[Vulkan]

Technically no.
How ever amusing it was.


It was an evil act regardless how ever I'm sure many CG players would gladly disagree.

Let's play some role reverse and pretend that goblin was a female elf and the elves Orcs.

Notice how you now completely view that as evil.

[Kish]

What this comic needed to really head off the "moral justification" flamewar

I think there's something wrong with one of your premises.

Specifically, the one that states that "show the commander being ruthless and racist" isn't exactly what Rich was going for.

[The Pilgrim]

The hobbo was unarmed, and handcuffed. The Elf totally killed him in cold blood.

The Elf's action was Evil. The fact that the hobbo could be evil, or could be a spy, is pointless.

From a full practical point of view, the action is equally unjustified. A spy, even a double-agent, is always useful as long as you *know* he is a spy, no matter you are unsure about his true loyalties, if any. They could have kept him as prisoner, feed him crap and false info and then released him. Or they could have set him free on promise to be a spy for the Resistance, then feed him crap in the hope he is actually a double-agent.

It is true that in war there are some situations in wich you can't take prisoners. But this was not one of these, as in the first panel it is stated that the goblins have shown no reaction to the attack. The Resistance had plenty time to deal with the hobbo, no need to kill him outright.

Finally, note that the Elf commander is NOT the leader of the Resistance. The leader is Thanh, and the decission to kill a POW was his to take.

[Trixie]

No one in the strip ever claimed all elves were good and pure. They are a team of war criminals lending military aid to an ally, not heroes

Fix'd it for ya.

People are forgetting what the goblins did to the Azurites already.

Oh, yeah, they were taking prisoners, for one.

I guess if they killed all these prisoners, one by one, in humiliating ways, you'd give them your "AWESOME!" seal of approval you just give elves?

And the hobgoblin was definitely a spy, which is why the elf killed him.

Aaaaaand, inventing of white-washing stuff for which there is no proof whatsoever even in words or racist war criminal begins in 3... 2... 1...


Oh, and in other (not yours) posts of this thread, wholesome apologism of racism and idea that it was somehow wholly the victims fault is already taking roots. Good, give them +/- two days, and these guys will make the elves into saints, as always someone does when someone commits major evil deed in OotS

What reason would he have to betray the majority of his people for his hatred of a simple minority?

The Government. They are ruled by Goblin and two Humans, not Hobgoblins. That's all there's to it.

[Solara]

Great comic as always Mr. Burlew!

I love the paladin's reaction in the last panel.

I doubt that guy was a paladin. There are very few left in the city, and a paladin (such as Thanh) probably wouldn't have been too happy with the situation, which is why they won't be telling him.

[Gredival]

Sorry, no. The phrase, "The only good [sapient race] is a dead [sapient race]" pushes anyone who believes it quite firmly southward, alignmentwise. Or "Good" is meaningless. Pick one, but you can't have neither.

And you are taking a punchline way too literally. Do you really think the elf commander is too stupid to recognize there is a theoretical chance goblins can be good aligned? He probably made two rational decisions that a) this goblin wasn't good and b) we cannot spare prisoners in this sort of resistance war.

The fact that they're a race rather than an organization is what means they're not an inherently evil organization.

But the metaphysics of D&D says that is exactly possible. You can classify entire races as morally good or bad by their rating on the alignment system

[Woodsman]

The Government. They are ruled by Goblin and two Humans, not Hobgoblins. That's all there's to it.

Not anymore it's not

[silvadel]

Karma Bites -- they will pay for than maneuver. Poor hobgoblin.

[Solara]

And you are taking a punchline way too literally. Do you really think the elf commander is too stupid to recognize there is a theoretical chance goblins can be good aligned? He probably made two rational decisions that a) this goblin wasn't good and b) we cannot spare prisoners in this sort of resistance war.

Except that his lieutenant was way too familiar with the whole routine and lead up to the 'joke', meaning this probably wasn't the first time.

[Mystic Muse]

But the metaphysics of D&D says that is exactly possible. You can classify entire races as morally good or bad by their rating on the alignment system

wrong. Even always evil races have at least 1% of them being deserters. I believe it's 5% but I'm not sure. so, since there is an infinite amount of fiends there is also an infinite amount of good aligned fiends.

yeah, not even fiends, the pure incarnation of chaotic evil are always evil.

[SPoD]

Fix'd it for ya.

Wow, that was incredibly original and clever. Good job.

[Eldariel]

It was an evil act regardless how ever I'm sure many CG players would gladly disagree.

Let's play some role reverse and pretend that goblin was a female elf and the elves Orcs.

Notice how you now completely view that as evil.

It's no more or less evil to kill spies regardless of the race. The speech? It could just be a red herring to ensure the spy didn't realize his bluff failed until it was too late. Though it's worth noting that in a world where there are such things as "evil countries" (dunno about "good countries", politics is dirty enough that that's practically impossible), a spy acting against them would probably be "good" in the grand scheme of things while a spy acting on their behalf would be evil.

So not Orcs themselves, but if talking about an evil Orc-nation and a non-evil Elf-nation (roles supported by MM generic alignments), it would actually make a difference if the races were flipped.

[multilis]

"(such as Thanh) probably wouldn't have been too happy with the situation, which is why they won't be telling him."

Not clear that all elves would be happy with the situation, only seeing opinion of a few.

"Lawful good" goblins in past have betrayed later. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html

[Kish]

And you are taking a punchline way too literally. Do you really think the elf commander is too stupid to recognize there is a theoretical chance goblins can be good aligned?

No, I think he's too evil to care. Or are you unaware that he's paraphrasing someone real who said "the only good Indian is a dead Indian"? If there weren't so many people not seeing horrible racism, I'd say Rich was heavy-handed about showing it, but as it stands, apparently he wasn't heavy-handed enough.

But the metaphysics of D&D says that is exactly possible. You can classify entire races as morally good or bad by their rating on the alignment system

From Rich Burlew, in the commentary on Don't Split the Party:

Vaarsuvius finds him/herself at the dragon's mercy because he/she never thinks to take precautions against her, despite knowing that the dragon he/she killed shared a home with another. Vaarsuvius then repeats and amplifies this misconception when he/she casts the custom-made familicide spell, essentially speaking for all players who say, "All monsters are evil and exist only for us to kill." But hopefully when the reader sees the scale on which Vaarsuvius carries out the devastation, the error of this thinking is more obvious. If it is wrong to kill a thousand dragons simply because they are dragons, then it is wrong to kill a single dragon for the same reasons.
Also, I'm not sure what it says about fantasy roleplaying that I felt the need to make the argument against genocide. Probably best that I not think about it too much.

[Harr]

He probably made two rational decisions that a) this goblin wasn't good and b) we cannot spare prisoners in this sort of resistance war.

This completely ignores the point that has been made, oh, about 47 times in the thread already, that it's not his killing of the hobgonlin but the way that he went about it that's reprehensible.

Do you really think the elf commander is too stupid to recognize there is a theoretical chance goblins can be good aligned?

You do realize that that makes it worse, not better, right?

[Gredival]

Except that his lieutenant was way too familiar with the whole routine, meaning this probably wasn't the first time.

And the fact he's made these same decisions repeatedly while leading a guerrilla resistance invalidates the rationality of the decision making how?

He's obviously at least decently intelligent and can comprehend the theoretical philosophical notion of sentience and its implications. He has simply decided (probably rightly) this is neither the time or the place to be sparing goblin prisoners until it can be determined if they deserve death or not.

[druid91]

Personally I don't get why everyone is surprised, almost every elf we have seen, V included, has been pretty violent I believe the only exception is V's partner.Besides I figure it was an even trade. The hobgoblin tried to trick his way into the resistance. The elf commander tricks him and throws him off a tower. Why is being thrown off a tower worse then getting your throat cut?

[Snake-Aes]

Elf guy listens to hob prisioner.
Elf Guy decides to kill said hob prisioner.

Whatever reasons he had, to both kill and use that method, are not within our grasp. There are far too many things for him to take into account, both pro and con having such prisioner. And no, "if he's a spy he can be killed later" is not appropriate. If the spy is out for a single second, that's more than enough to cause the resistance some major trouble.

If he was planted, and it seems a very unique bait, he might as well be under scry constantly. the Baddies do have the resources to pay for a scried spy if it'll drop the resistance.


Was it evil? Yeah, it was. No secondary reason will change that.
Do we give a damn? Mostly, we don't. That's why the plot exists in the first place.

[CWater]

It's not killing the golbin I have a problem with, it's that the reason - the explicitly stated reason - is that he's a goblin.

Not because he might turn on then. Not even because it's a waste of resources. And he obviously enjoyed killing him.

And it doesn't help at all that the commander guy made a joke about it...if it had to be done I would have preferred them to just be straight up stone cold efficient about it. STAB. "Sorry, can't take any chances, I'm sure you understand."

My thoughts exactly.

Even if I do think the goblin guy was a bastard, the way he used the word "greenskin" really made me angry, and that he was obviously lying about the helping thing, what the commander did was still wrong. I started to like the elf in the last comic, the fight-scene was pretty awesome, but now he seems all jerk to me. As for the lieutenant I can't really say yet.

But, but, good comic again! I hope there will be more soon.

[Kish]

He's obviously at least decently intelligent

Oh dear god. He's the new Girard.

...Look, the one thing we know about him is that he chooses to present himself as genocidally racist, whether because he is or for some other reason. Whether we can estimate his alignment from that is apparently possible to debate. We certainly can't estimate his mental ability scores. He may be an (evil) genius or he may be the stupidest commander to ever command an elven strike team.

[Gredival]

You do realize that that makes it worse, not better, right?

I think it simply shows he's pragmatic enough to know that some niceties cannot be afforded in a war vs. an enemy that is metaphysically evil

[Harr]

He's obviously at least decently intelligent and can comprehend the theoretical philosophical notion of sentience and its implications. He has simply decided (probably rightly) this is neither the time or the place to be sparing goblin prisoners until it can be determined if they deserve death or not.

Once again completely ignoring the entire point of the thread. LOL, it's actually getting kinda funny to watch

Once again for the Nth time: it's not his killing of the hobgoblin, but the way that he went about it, that's reprehensible.

Again? ok: It's not his killing of the hobgoblin, but the way that he went about it, that's reprehensible.