DM doesn't get it (Rant)

[Raptor2213]

I've removed the body of this post because I'm done ranting. I've moved on with it, some DMs are new and do things they shouldn't. The steam has been blown off. Thanks to everyone who posted for giving me the chance go calm down about this so I can move on. In the end, it was probably both of our faults. Everyone will still side with whatever side they supported and say, "so-and-so was righter!", but it boils down to failures in communication on both ends. Those of you computer savvy will still be able to read my posts, which have not been removed, just made REAL hard to read.
Sorry, but I'm a bit burnt-up by this, and I have to rant.
The lead-in.
Eberron 3.5ed Campaign setting
DM has told player that all books with "Wizards of the Coast" log are accepted books to pull from
Playing a LE character who plans to multiclass as both paladin of tyranny and blackguard
DM tells player after the character is made, 1:30 after the game was supposed to start that he isn't allowing UA, as well as any non-LG Paladins. Player gripes, DM gives.
3rd-level game
Later in adventure, party encounters 4 Gnolls, followed by a Red Dragon(spawn?) CR7, followed by a Minotaur (CR6). Defeat said monsters with one casualty (mummy PC to Red Dragon(spawn?).
Walk into a room with several Kobolds. CE Barbarian grabs head Kobold with a non-critical touch attack followed with non-critical grapple check and shoves him into a DM created portable hole, Kobold goes into stasis, and gets let out later with little to say about the incident, and cowers in fear from the party. My PC apologized for the rudeness of the barbarian, and was dripping with politeness
My PC proceeds grab two MW mining picks left by fleeing Kobolds (who did not return for >30min at least, never saw said Kobolds return)
The gripe:
Player attempts to sell above mining pics in town, talks to a shopkeeper. Shopkeeper offers 500g for two, PC rolls diplomacy, rolls 14, shopkeeper counter-offers with 475g. PC feels insulted and goes next door. First shopkeep calls 2nd and tells him of the previous conversation, second shopkeep offers 250g for both.
Why would a shopkeeper every go LOWER on his bid, if not to directly insult the offerer?
PC feels insulted, and posts offer at local adventurer's guild. Sells mining picks to Kobolds for 600g EACH.
Kobold (who previously cowered in fear from the party) shows up, casts a DM-created curse on the PC, DM informs the players that he is a 20th-level caster (in a 3rd-level game), and ports out. DM does not roll to hit player on the touch attack needed, save is DC 30 (again, 3rd-level game).
Player casts detect magic, no magic is present.
Next morning, player is a cursed with being a gnome.
PC goes to the clerics of the evil order he follows, and is told that it is a curse, removable by remove curse. PC asks the price of said 3rd-level spell (MV <300), cleric tells PC it will cost >1700g. Later were told that the good clerics down the street sell the same spellcast for 150g.
Because EVERYONE knows that it's good economics to sell things 12x your competitor's asking price in the same market.

[tyckspoon]

Man, that's just stupid all-round.

[Serpentine]

Why on Earth would anyone pay hundreds of gold for a small-sized mining pick?

Other than that... Looks like a lot of poor communication to me.

[Kallisti]

...?

I have no clue what the GM could possibly be thinking.

EDIT:@^ They're masterwork. Although the player may have erred in trying to sell Small masterwork picks to Medium creatures, the logical response is for shopkeeper 1 to say "I don't have any use for tiny little picks, you should go look for someone small enough to use them," not make any offer, and especially not lower his offer in response to a non-epic fail Diplomacy check

[Samm]

This DM seem really incoherent at the least. There's plenty of suspension of disbelief and it just doesn't really make sense. I think he's pretty poor from what I've heard...

This DM needs to learn how to DM.

[ryzouken]

Eject that guy from his position or from the group. Failing that, eject yourself. No game better than bad game.

Nothing described above is redeeming in any fashion. Essentially, you're playing for someone only interested in reveling in power. I very much doubt you'll get a good game in given the stupid crap that went on over something so mundane as selling excess equipment.


Ugh. I'm annoyed and it didn't even happen to me.

[sonofzeal]

I'm almost willing to buy that he's got some crazy meta-plan behind all this insanity.


Consider for a second - he had shopkeepers offering low prices, then even lower prices (presumably to punish you for haggling and slowing down the game), then even lower prices (presumably to punish you for comparison shopping and slowing down the game), then... gives you a fairly high price on a silver platter?

Odd. Either he's the most chaotic DM I've seen (and I've seen some doozies), or he's got an intricate master plan. Or both.

[tyckspoon]

EDIT:@^ They're masterwork. Although the player may have erred in trying to sell Small masterwork picks to Medium creatures, the logical response is for shopkeeper 1 to say "I don't have any use for tiny little picks, you should go look for someone small enough to use them," not make any offer, and especially not lower his offer in response to a non-epic fail Diplomacy check

A masterwork mining pick =/= a masterwork weapon. It's a masterwork tool for Profession (Mining). It's worth about 53 gold by default, and by standard rules can be sold for half that. And even if they were weapons instead of tools.. 500gp is a massively larger offer for them than you would normally get, and I don't know why the players/characters would be crazy enough to have refused it in the first place.

[krossbow]

i feel sorry for the shopkeepers in this world. Thats like spending 10k on a shovel because its really nice.

[Temotei]

i feel sorry for the shopkeepers in this world. Thats like spending 10k on a shovel because its really nice.

I really like that sandwich's appearance! It's quite endearing! *buys sandwich*

Dude...you just paid that guy fifty bucks for a sandwich.

I know!

[Rankar]

Learning to DM takes time... But this sounds just plain silly. Either he's a genius that has a plan so vastly far beyond what you're ready for, or he needs PunPun to smite him.

I'd say your rant is acceptable, but give it another chance before starting the mutiny and taking the position of DM for yourself then run him through Tomb of Horrors.

[krossbow]

OH *(&%^!

that pickaxe is the one that will pierce the heavens!

[Touchy]

He might of considered that the store owners would value it differently?
Or the fact that evil clerics aren't usually specializing in removing curses, so they would have a lower stock of said remove curse. Failing that much, he's an idiot and thats about all I can defend him on.

[Rad]

This looks like a lot of miscommunication and petty releases of frustration. I'd advice both of you to seriously knock it down or the Snarl will destroy your game.

[Devils_Advocate]

So... basically, this DM makes up numbers as (s)he feels like it, without regard for game balance or realism or what the books say? For no apparent reason, to no obvious end?

That's... interesting. There are several possible approaches that you could take to this issue. For example: You could stop taking the story at all seriously, just play along, and wait to discover what level of insanity the DM is capable of reaching if simply allowed to proceed without criticism. This could, potentially, be fun. Alternately or in addition, you could have your anti-paladin plot to murder everyone for their inappropriately nonsensical behavior.

[Killer Angel]

Why would a shopkeeper every go LOWER on his bid, if not to directly insult the offerer?

I'm not insulting you, I'm teaching you a lesson: I was being very generous, because I'm used to offer good prizes for the first-time client, so they come back. And you try to negotiate?!? well, try next door.

PC feels insulted, and posts offer at local adventurer's guild. Sells mining picks to Kobolds for 600g EACH.

...but this is inconsistent.

PC asks the price of said 3rd-level spell (MV <300), cleric tells PC it will cost >1700g. Later were told that the good clerics down the street sell the same spellcast for 150g.

DM informs the players that he is a 20th-level caster (in a 3rd-level game), and ports out.

Normally, I would find this the worst thing, but must be said that this is one the most recurrent mistakes, for new DMs.

[Raptor2213]

A masterwork mining pick =/= a masterwork weapon. It's a masterwork tool for Profession (Mining). It's worth about 53 gold by default, and by standard rules can be sold for half that. And even if they were weapons instead of tools.. 500gp is a massively larger offer for them than you would normally get, and I don't know why the players/characters would be crazy enough to have refused it in the first place.

He said that they qualified as MW Light Picks (therefore weapons)

Normally, I would find this the worst thing, but must be said that this is one the most recurrent mistakes, for new DMs.

He's a new DM. I think I'm going to try to tough it out. But DANG, I had to bitch to get this outa my system. The bad thing is, one of the other players was actually DEFENDING the DM's position. That this was fair market value/economics.

Edit: Rant closed!

[Sinfire Titan]

I really like that sandwich's appearance! It's quite endearing! *buys sandwich*

Dude...you just paid that guy fifty bucks for a sandwich.

I know!

Spoiler

Show

Of course, Sandwiches are one of the top 5 items Wished for.

[Sliver]

I'm not insulting you, I'm teaching you a lesson: I was being very generous, because I'm used to offer good prizes for the first-time client, so they come back. And you try to negotiate?!? well, try next door.

1 - "You made me angry so now I will reduce my initial offer" doesn't sound like a good business model. Especially since the first haggle is for testing the water between the client-merchant so pissing off a client, especially an adventuring one..

2 - It's not really "try next door" really, because he magically calls over to screw over the deal.

3 - Why the hell the other merchant listens to him? He knows that the slight reduction in cost caused the PCs to search for a better deal. He either wants to make the purchase and then he won't do it, or he doesn't want to buy the damn pick and he won't give any offer, because he knows they won't accept such an offer.

[sonofzeal]

That this was fair market value/economics.

D&D has never had that.

[Math_Mage]

Spoiler

Show

<snip>

Of course, Sandwiches are one of the top 5 items Wished for.

"And your other wishes?"
"Why would I need other wishes?"

[GoC]

This DM needs to learn how to DM.

This man said it.

[Skaven]

He's making it up as he goes along, that much is obvious. He's deciding things on the fly to work against the party.

As said previously, he doesn't seem to know how to DM. The DM is tasked with playing with the party, not against it. Playing with the party offers challenges to the party, but does not actively work to screw them over if they do things he does not like, as that guy is doing.

[DabblerWizard]

It's theoretically possible that your DM has some sort of obscure logic to rationalize his sporadic, irregular, PC-hurting behavior.

Or he just has no clue what he's doing.

Or he's being intentionally foolish.


I would suggest talking to him, trying to figure out which one of the above is the case. Hopefully this will lead to a greater understanding between both of you... or maybe it will just lead to quarrels and friendships being dissolved... but either way, at least you'll know why this is happening, and that can be comforting.

[MachineWraith]

He might of considered that the store owners would value it differently?

None of the DM's pricing makes sense. Nor does punishing the player for trying to get more. Naturally the player will be wanting to get as much gold for his loot as possible.

Or the fact that evil clerics aren't usually specializing in removing curses, so they would have a lower stock of said remove curse. Failing that much, he's an idiot and thats about all I can defend him on.

There is no "stock" of remove curse. At worst, the evil cleric should just say, "I did not ask my god for the ability to cast that spell today. Come back tomorrow." There's really no reason for the evil clerics to charge that much.

[tyckspoon]

There is no "stock" of remove curse. At worst, the evil cleric should just say, "I did not ask my god for the ability to cast that spell today. Come back tomorrow." There's really no reason for the evil clerics to charge that much.

I can think of two, one IC and one OOC, but neither one really makes the DM look good considering why a Remove Curse was needed in the first place (for those with short attention spans, a 20th level caster spontaneously generates, casts an irresistable curse on a 3rd level character, and disappears.) The IC reason is that the cleric thinks he's the only source of this spell for the character, so he can safely gouge the PC for whatever he wants (the flaw is that it really shouldn't be too hard for somebody to talk a good cleric into uncursing him, even if he appears to be Evil. Which he doesn't, 'cause right now he's a gnome.) The OOC reason is the DM may have realized just how ludicrously he over-paid for those two picks and wanted an excuse to take some of the money back from the party.

[Evard]

Personally if I was an evil cleric and I noticed that a local evil adventurers group needed a remove curse I would do it for free, of course asking for a favor in return later ;) (cause that's how evil rolls baby!)

[dentrag2]

Personally if I was an evil cleric and I noticed that a local evil adventurers group needed a remove curse I would do it for free, of course asking for a favor in return later ;) (cause that's how evil rolls baby!)

No, that is how Lawful Evil rolls. Chaotic Evil and Neutral Evil would probably just not cast it on them, after taking the money.

[Zom B]

Whew. I clicked on this thinking it was about me.

EDIT: Wait, you have other DMs? *Runs away crying*

[Evard]

Couldn't a polymorph spell also work to turn the guy back from being a gnome? Lol an evil bard could cast some sort of image to make them think he got turned back lol