The Great Old Ones vs. The Ruinous Powers

[kpenguin]

Hm. It seems I have derailed this thread into a TTGL vs. WH40k thread.

Lovely.

[Galileo]

Eventually, everything becomes a TTGL thread. That's the real power of the Spiral Nemesis.

[Talkkno]

We should have a Exalted vs Chaos Gods fight.

[Tavar]

I think that's pretty solidly in Exalted's favor. I mean, the Chaos Gods seem to be at most at the level of the Primordials or the Incarne. Mortal exalted can kill those things. And, before it's brought up, no, it doesn't matter that the Chaos God's can't die. Exalts have a charm specifically designed to kill things that can't be killed(the primordials and gods have a similar property).

[Texas_Ben]

I think that's pretty solidly in Exalted's favor. I mean, the Chaos Gods seem to be at most at the level of the Primordials or the Incarne. Mortal exalted can kill those things. And, before it's brought up, no, it doesn't matter that the Chaos God's can't die. Exalts have a charm specifically designed to kill things that can't be killed(the primordials and gods have a similar property).

It isn't that they can't die, it's that they are literally comprised of the psychic emanations of sentient beings. To kill them completely, you would need to kill every sentient being in existence. The chaos gods themselves aren't so much "beings" in the usual sense of the word as they are sentient manifestations of their native plane (the warp).

[Tavar]

It isn't that they can't die, it's that they are literally comprised of the psychic emanations of sentient beings. To kill them completely, you would need to kill every sentient being in existence. The chaos gods themselves aren't so much "beings" in the usual sense of the word as they are sentient manifestations of their native plane (the warp).

That's pretty much what gods are in Exalted. And they can be killed. It's not easy, and requires specific charms, but it can be done.

[GoC]

To be frank, I don't know why beings such as Yog-Sothoth or Azathoth would even notice the Chaos Gods existence, let alone fight them.
Such limited constructs formed by thoughts of matter-things have no signifigance to them.

This.

[Nerd-o-rama]

This thread seems to imply the Chaos Gods aren't simply avatars of Nyarlathotep. Not sure where people got that idea.

[Amiel]

Nurgle is the deity of life, vivaciousness, protection, playfulness, and benevolence.
Khorne is the deity of equality of war, strength for noble pursuits, strategy and the colour red.
Slaanesh is the deity of the colour purple, equality of sex, equity of gender, free and liberal expression, and purity.
Tzeentch is the deity of diligence, inspiration, intellect, imagination, magic and goodly change.

[Eldan]

Nurgle is also the god of evolution, development and advancement.
Khorne is also the god of courage and bravery.
Tzeentch, as we all know, is the god of hope, planning and ambition.
Oh, and Slaanesh is, finally, also the god of pure love.

[Seraph]

Nurgle is the deity of life, vivaciousness, protection, playfulness, and benevolence.
Khorne is the deity of equality of war, strength for noble pursuits, strategy and the colour red.
Slaanesh is the deity of the colour purple, equality of sex, equity of gender, free and liberal expression, and purity.
Tzeentch is the deity of diligence, inspiration, intellect, imagination, magic and goodly change.

yeah, and? Azathoth is.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I was thinking about it, and my earlier statement should be amended. As much as Nyarlathotep is amused by the human race, he and the other Outer Gods and Great Old Ones (these are generally considered to be two different things, FYI) really don't have much to do with mortal beings. They exist independently and on a level beyond mortal comprehension.

The 40k Chaos Gods, on the other hand, suppose a universe where mortal races are numerous and psychically powerful enough for their ideas to develop into "Gods" based on the collective unconscious (which I don't think had even been conceived of in psychology when Lovecraft was writing). They are actually quite distinct from the Outer Gods in that respect, in that they are fundamentally human (or Eldar/Ork/whatever), whereas the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones are fundamentally not.

Still, I have to say that if we're including the Big 3 of the Outer Gods here, the Chaos Gods are rather outclassed, since those consist of Yog-Sothoth (entity consisting of/controlling/omnipresent in all time and space), Azathoth (ultimate source of all energy ever present in the Universe), and Nyarlathotep (source of all madness, misery, and entropy, and also the brains of the operation).

[nooblade]

I always thought that the things Lovecraft wrote about the various Cthulhu mythos weren't precisely the way it was for that fictional setting, but just a pathetic, mortal attempt at understanding the forces at work. Seemingly random occult-looking things like "chant these words to make Cthulhu rise out of the ocean" could've just been a metaphor or coded instructions for something else actually totally incomprehensible, not just a bizarre ritual.

Yeah, maybe overdid it on the whole "maddening horror" genre thing.

[Naturebane]

The Chaos Pantheon would be fighting each other before crearing about fighting the old ones. if for some bizarre reason that they worked together then nurgles powers would be next to useless. with around 8 major mythos gods that have active powers the chaos gods are at a major disadvantage before the fight starts

[chiasaur11]

Gork N' Mork aren't in this, right?

That's the big question here.

[Deca]

Gork N' Mork aren't in this, right?

That's the big question here.

I don't think so. While they are Warp Gods technically, they aren't part of the Ruinous Powers which is what is mentioned in the title.

And I agree with you. The four Chaos Gods are screwed but Gork n' Mork would show those Lovecraftian pansies who's boss.

[Amiel]

yeah, and? Azathoth is.

There's no reason for them to fight; especially not when the benevolence of the "Ruinous Powers" is/are revealed.

[Nerd-o-rama]

To be fair, Azathtoth doesn't really fight anyone. He's just a mindless, omnipresent concept.

He will ruin your whole planet's day if you (or Nyarlathotep, his official viceroy and crony) do manage to get his attention.

"Hey guys, what's going on over*PLANET BURNED TO RADIOACTIVE HUSK*"

Admittedly, I'm bringing in stuff from the CoC Roleplaying game here, but considering the Chaos Gods are from a wargame, I feel that's fair.

[Shadow of the Sun]

See, the thing is...the Chaos Gods from 40K are understandable, by definition. They are born out of human emotions, or least those of aliens we can comprehend. That gives us the ability to understand them, at least somewhat.

But the Great Old Ones? They are, by definition, outside of human understanding. Anything we know about them is an account by a human narrator- by someone who cannot, by definition, give appropriate evidence to their behaviours and abilities.

That makes it relatively difficult to judge this, but I'm going to put my vote towards the Great Old Ones. From what we have been told (which may be only a fraction of their true powers due to the inability of the narrator to understand them) they can overturn creation in less than a moment. Less than a moment.

A more fair comparison would be Slaanesh vs. Y'golanac- they both fulfill similar roles, for example.

[The_New_Guy]

Try as I might I can't imagine any way in which the Ruinous Powers could win this one. I find it hard to believe that they'd even attract the attention of the GOO's, but supposing they did...

Let's say the Ruinous Powers discover the Great Old Ones and decide they want to off these uberpowerful presences, lest they ruin everybody's fun. So they begin to attack. They find R'lyeh and nuke it. They massacre countless cultist on countless worlds. They do everything they can to bring the Great Old Ones out of hiding.

The Great Old Ones ignore them.

This continues for a long milennia for the mortal races. Massacre after massacre, stunt after stunt. The Great Old Ones don't show. Eventually one of the Ruinous Powers gets the message and decides to try a little research. They look into the great old ones and find a lot of claptrap - most of it written by insane cultists who didn't have enough two clues to rub together let alone spell out the arcane and unfathomable rituals to summon forth their masters. But hey, it's a start. They start trying the rituals. Especially the ones involving human sacrifice (well - humanoid sacrifice really). But it never works. Nothing seems to draw forth the attention of the Great Old Ones. Frustrated the Ruinous Powers decide to make a last ditch effort. They start playing celestial snooker in an attempt to get the stars to align just right, since the books talk a lot about stars. It's a pretty random affair - they just knock celestial bodies about (let's not discuss how they do this) hoping to find the right alignment of the stars. And eventually they get things right (estimates on the damage caused by celestial snooker suggest that the universe is in pretty crap shape by now - moving all those gravity wells at random and what not). Azathoth wakes up...

And that's the ball game. Azathoth wakes up and the universe is simply unmade. All life ceases to be, including those beings whose psychic emanations power the Ruinous Powers (who also cease to be as a result). There is no save to avoid this, no chance to escape. All that is ceases to be. And the Great Old Ones have one the war. Azathoth, bored of the nothingness, drifts back into his eternal slumber and creation begins anew.

[chiasaur11]

Try as I might I can't imagine any way in which the Ruinous Powers could win this one. I find it hard to believe that they'd even attract the attention of the GOO's, but supposing they did...

Let's say the Ruinous Powers discover the Great Old Ones and decide they want to off these uberpowerful presences, lest they ruin everybody's fun. So they begin to attack. They find Ry'leh and nuke it. They massacre countless cultist on countless worlds. They do everything they can to bring the Great Old Ones out of hiding.

The Great Old Ones ignore them.

This continues for a long milennia for the mortal races. Massacre after massacre, stunt after stunt. The Great Old Ones don't show. Eventually one of the Ruinous Powers gets the message and decides to try a little research. They look into the great old ones and find a lot of claptrap - most of it written by insane cultists who didn't have enough two clues to rub together let alone spell out the arcane and unfathomable rituals to summon forth their masters. But hey, it's a start. They start trying the rituals. Especially the ones involving human sacrifice (well - humanoid sacrifice really). But it never works. Nothing seems to draw forth the attention of the Great Old Ones. Frustrated the Ruinous Powers decide to make a last ditch effort. They start playing celestial snooker in an attempt to get the stars to align just right, since the books talk a lot about stars. It's a pretty random affair - they just knock celestial bodies about (let's not discuss how they do this) hoping to find the right alignment of the stars. And eventually they get things right (estimates on the damage caused by celestial snooker suggest that the universe is in pretty crap shape by now - moving all those gravity wells at random and what not). Azathtoth wakes up...

And that's the ball game. Azathtoth wakes up and the universe is simply unmade. All life ceases to be, including those beings whose psychic emanations power the Ruinous Powers (who also cease to be as a result). There is no save to avoid this, no chance to escape. All that is ceases to be. And the Great Old Ones have one the war. Azathtoth, bored of the nothingness, drifts back into his eternal slumber and creation begins anew.

Ouch.

Now, what would happen if Gork N' Mork were involved?

Please use proper Orkish Grammar for all answers.

[The_New_Guy]

Ouch.

Now, what would happen if Gork N' Mork were involved?

Please use proper Orkish Grammar for all answers.

Err... it could go either one of two ways. Either the Ruinous Powers would find the secret of the stars aligning more quickly (which would lead to less bloodshed in the end - so probably not) or Gork N' Mork would purposefully sabotage every attempt the Ruinous Ones made at waking up Big A, knowing full well that the Ruinous Powers are completely out to lunch on this one and will lose big time.

[The Glyphstone]

Nah, Gork n' Mork would do every'ting dey could ta wake up da Azawhatsis. Cuz when he wakes up and da youneeverse turns to no'ting, den Gork n' Mork finally have ENUF DAKKA. Since nuthin' can stand up to ENUF DAKKA, dey den blow Azawhatsis into a billion non-Orky pieces, and use WAAAAUGH powah to start der own youneeverse.

[Shadowcaller]

Nah, Gork n' Mork would do every'ting dey could ta wake up da Azawhatsis. Cuz when he wakes up and da youneeverse turns to no'ting, den Gork n' Mork finally have ENUF DAKKA. Since nuthin' can stand up to ENUF DAKKA, dey den blow Azawhatsis into a billion non-Orky pieces, and use WAAAAUGH powah to start der own youneeverse.

Or fan boy-ism, yay!

As there aren't any proof that the ork gods even exist, nor their capabilities, I'm not sure anyone can vouch for that.

[Texas_Ben]

Or fan boy-ism, yay!

As there aren't any proof that the ork gods even exist, nor their capabilities, I'm not sure anyone can vouch for that.

How does it feel to be a withered husk of a man, incapable of laughing or having fun?

Nah, Gork n' Mork would do every'ting dey could ta wake up da Azawhatsis. Cuz when he wakes up and da youneeverse turns to no'ting, den Gork n' Mork finally have ENUF DAKKA. Since nuthin' can stand up to ENUF DAKKA, dey den blow Azawhatsis into a billion non-Orky pieces, and use WAAAAUGH powah to start der own youneeverse.

Point of interest: Is it not the case that Mork already has enuff dakka, and Gork enough choppa? I was under the impression that whole orks are always fans of MOAR DAKKA and MOAR CHOPPA, having enuff dakka and enuff choppa is reserved to Gork and Mork.

At any rate, I thoroughly approve of this plan as laid out.

[Shadowcaller]

How does it feel to be a withered husk of a man, incapable of laughing or having fun?.

I'm feeling just fine actually. Then again, I don't play WH40K so I might be missing that 'fun'.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Ork fan boy-ism, yay!

As there aren't any proof that the ork gods even exist, nor their capabilities, I'm not sure anyone can vouch for that.

Taking Warhammer 40k at all seriously, yay!

[Shadowcaller]

Taking Warhammer 40k at all seriously, yay!

A lot of people seems to do that on this section really.

[Nerd-o-rama]

I still don't believe they're being serious, myself.

[chiasaur11]

I still don't believe they're being serious, myself.

Orkz iz made fir fightin' an' for winnin!

Takin' stuff all serious like is for the pink onez.