would you consider this an abuse of the rules

[krossbow]

A question about a twisting of the rules with the fireball spell's interpretation, used to make it slightly less useless against rogues.

A glowing, pea-sized bead streaks from the pointing digit and, unless it impacts upon a material body or solid barrier prior to attaining the prescribed range, blossoms into the fireball at that point. (An early impact results in an early detonation.) If you attempt to send the bead through a narrow passage, such as through an arrow slit, you must “hit” the opening with a ranged touch attack, or else the bead strikes the barrier and detonates prematurely.

As an interpretation of this passage, would you view it as against the spirit of the game to allow people to attempt a ranged touch attack to hit someone and deny them their reflex save? (essentially, treating the pea like an orb that exploded).

[BRC]

Maybe, but I don't think the control over the location is that precise. Also, this would be an abuse of fluff, not RAW.

Also, apparently Fireballs are just as dangerous, and easy to dodge, at the edges as at ground zero.

[taltamir]

this isn't an abuse of the rules, its a new houserule that is based upon logical interpretation of existing rules...
if you can hit an arrow slit, you can hit a person > if you hit a person directly, no ref save for him/her (lots of precedence) > you can thus use a ranged touch attack with a fireball to deny people their ref save.

it makes perfect sense and is based on existing rules, but it is a houserule (not an abuse of the rules) and thus up to each DM to decide if they want to implement or not.

[HunterOfJello]

It's very obvious how fireball was intended to be used. You should just use it that way and use orbs for other purposes.

*edit*


here's the part you left out

"You point your finger and determine the range (distance and height) at which the fireball is to burst. "

You don't aim fireballs at people. You aim them at coordinates.


*edit again*

Reflex save is defined as, "A type of saving throw, related to a character's ability to withstand damage thanks to his agility or quick reactions."

Based on the idea of a point of light that turns into a fireball once it hits something, I'd probably give a person hit by a fireball that's on the way to a target the chance to use a reflex save against it.

Even if a person's AC doesn't help them dodge an incoming fireball, their reflex save would allow them to position their body in a way that they would take less damage (cover their face, move up their shield, twist away, etc.).

[JonestheSpy]

Fixed coordinate points don't dodge. Animate creatures do. So having good enough aim to get your fireball seed through an arrow slit that is unable to see it coming and react has nothing to do with reflex saves.

So yeah, abusive interpretation.

[krossbow]

True, but the Dexterity bonus to AC is the person dodging incoming attacks at them; so they are dodging, just in a different way than a reflex way.

[taltamir]

True, but the Dexterity bonus to AC is the person dodging incoming attacks at them; so they are dodging, just in a different way than a reflex way.

which, btw, they explicitly may lose under certain circumstances... when you lose your dodge bonus to AC then you might as well be aiming at an arrow slit... heck, a person is a bigger target

[Curmudgeon]

Reflex saves have nothing to do with an attacker's aim; they're entirely automatic responses to danger. The game doesn't disallow Reflex saves for any condition other than death.

[AbyssKnight]

You are basically making Fireball a single sphere Meteor Swarm, it is clearly a house rule, and you acknowledge it as such, but is it abusive....no, as long as everyone is aware of the change before play.

It is my opinion that almost no rule change is abusive so long as every one is aware of the rule beforehand and can take it into account when making choices regarding play.

JonestheSpy, every single person who has ever trained to hit a moving target has used stationary targets for practice. Being able to aim at a stationary target does improve you chances of hitting a moving target. The difference in difficulty you describe will very readily be covered in the difference in target AC (a moving target will have a higher AC than a stationary object).

HunterofJello, normally all you have to do is designate a distance and height of the fireball. But the spell itself give rules for hitting a difficult target (such as sending the "fire-pea" through a window) that uses attack role mechanics. If you can aim it, you can aim it, the target shouldn't matter.

[valadil]

That's closer to how GURPS does things. In GURPS you target a square instead of the vertex between 4 squares. Anyone in that square can't dodge as normal. People outside of it have dodging options. Works well enough in GURPS, but I don't know how it would be in D&D. Avoiding AoEs is one of the things rogues do well. I'm not sure that giving wizards another advantage over them would actually benefit the game.

[taltamir]

That's closer to how GURPS does things. In GURPS you target a square instead of the vertex between 4 squares. Anyone in that square can't dodge as normal. People outside of it have dodging options. Works well enough in GURPS, but I don't know how it would be in D&D. Avoiding AoEs is one of the things rogues do well. I'm not sure that giving wizards another advantage over them would actually benefit the game.

balance it by giving them other things... for example, the ability to sneak attack more things.
frankly, everything but oozes should be sneak attackable by default, and oozes should be with the aid of magic
http://www.hookiedookiepanic.com/geist/comic.php?ID=33
"the lake is bleeding, knob... how does -water- bleed!?"
"they are -really- good knives!!!"

[Rainbownaga]

balance it by giving them other things... for example, the ability to sneak attack more things...

Did anybody else notice that the rogue can now sneak attack with a fireball?

[krossbow]

Did anybody else notice that the rogue can now sneak attack with a fireball?

That image is both Hilarious and horrifying at the same time.

[sonofzeal]

Did anybody else notice that the rogue can now sneak attack with a fireball?

SneakeddyBOOM! *starts printing up a new charsheet*

[Hawriel]

This is a fine interpretation of the rules. As said above it would stray into house rule domane. However if you want to get rid of the reflex save I suggest having the caster of fireball, or other similar spells, to make a ranged attack every time it's cast.

edit.

Oh and just because you miss doesnt mean the spell winks out. Id roll for deviation and have the spell detonate from there.

[Optimystik]

What happens if it misses? Does the pea still explode? If so, do targets in the blast radius get a save then? If not, then what? Does it keep traveling until it hits another obstacle? Does it just fizzle out?

[TheCountAlucard]

Reminds me of how the Rogue's player in my current game keeps trying to argue in favor of letting his character use his Reflex save against attacks.* If he'd just drop the issue instead of bringing it up every time he's hit by anything, combat wouldn't take three hours.

*Can't help but notice that at no point in any occurance of the argument did he suggest that other characters should be able to use their Reflex saves against attacks...

[krossbow]

What happens if it misses? Does the pea still explode? If so, do targets in the blast radius get a save then? If not, then what? Does it keep traveling until it hits another obstacle? Does it just fizzle out?

i'd assume it would miss the person and just sail past before exploding (probably with them outside the blast radius)

[Kallisti]

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssss ssssss.

Helpful answer: You aim at coordinates, not people. I believe that a Necklace of Fireballs or possibly DBF could fix that, but don't hold me to that.

[AbyssKnight]

What happens if it misses? Does the pea still explode? If so, do targets in the blast radius get a save then? If not, then what? Does it keep traveling until it hits another obstacle? Does it just fizzle out?

Like I said, you could just look at Meteor Swarm, which lets you do exactly what the OP described, the rules are right in the spell.

If you attack a person instead of an area, and hit with a ranged touch, they get no save (I wouldn't apply the bludgeoning damage from MS to the Fireball) and anyone else in the area gets a Reflex save.

If you attack a person instead of an area, and miss with the ranged touch, then it explodes at the nearest corner of the targets space and everyone (including the guy you aimed for and missed) in the area gets a Reflex save.

Or you just aim for an area, then everyone in the area gets a Reflex save.

[taltamir]

Did anybody else notice that the rogue can now sneak attack with a fireball?

not any more unusual then sneak attacking with disintegrate or melf acid arrow or any other weaponlike spell...
And you don't typically multiclass as a rogue/wizard.
hitting someone with the fireball exactly in the face / balls / etc instead of an armored spot would do that... or maybe in the slit in the helmet for you to see through.

[Optimystik]

Like I said, you could just look at Meteor Swarm, which lets you do exactly what the OP described, the rules are right in the spell.

It doesn't actually. Meteor Swarm is a targeted spell with an optional RTA roll for precision damage. He is talking about removing the targeting from fireball entirely and making it simply an RTA. ("like a fire orb that explodes.")

If you miss with an orb it fizzles. If you miss with Meteor Swarm it still goes off. MS allows a reflex save, Fire orb doesn't. It's not clear-cut.

[RebelRogue]

Abusive is probably too strong a word, but since hitting touch AC is generally a borked mechanic in 3.5, I would not recommend it personally.

[qcontinuum]

If one of my players asked, instead of just removing the reflex save I'd say that if they hit the target, it reduces the target's "evasion level" by one: if they've got Improved Evasion it becomes regular Evasion, regular Evasion goes away, and only if they don't have Evasion does it deny the Reflex Save. If the player misses the target, and for everyone who isn't the primary target of the spell, I'd grant a +2 circumstance bonus to Ref Save, since instead of attempting to detonate the fireball for maximum exposure, the player tried to do pinpoint damage.

Incidentally, this probably helps UMD classes more than Wizards/Sorcs, since UMD classes are dependent upon wands and the like, where the Save DCs don't scale and Metamagic becomes much more difficult/expensive to apply.

[ericgrau]

I'd put the new spell at at least 4th level, since one of your targets is now much less likely to avoid the fireball. I'd say more, but you're denying the save to only one of the targets. Against only 1 target it's still usually weaker than scorching ray, which is a 2nd level spell.

[Vangor]

Since you have the same difficulty of reflex saving no matter where in the explosion you are, I see no reason touching a person with the mote of fire would deny them the reflex save or similar. Seems a loose interpretation of one rule while requiring completely ignoring the way another rule functions.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

I think your housrule is a great idea. Fireball is a very suboptimal choice for blasting and blasting is a suboptimal choice for wizarding. But sometimes you just wanna blow everything up.

Also characters with high reflex saves and evasion generally have good touch AC's too so those characters still have an advantage in fights with fireball throwing wizards.

[Heliomance]

"So I can make an attack roll to get it through a narrow space? What's the AC to get it down the Rogue's throat?

[DragoonWraith]

"So I can make an attack roll to get it through a narrow space? What's the AC to get it down the Rogue's throat?

"23"
"Nat-20!"
"OK, you hit him in the throat with the fireball. The Rogue makes his Reflex save and has Improved Evasion: no damage."

[AbyssKnight]

It doesn't actually. Meteor Swarm is a targeted spell with an optional RTA roll for precision damage. He is talking about removing the targeting from fireball entirely and making it simply an RTA. ("like a fire orb that explodes.")

If you miss with an orb it fizzles. If you miss with Meteor Swarm it still goes off. MS allows a reflex save, Fire orb doesn't. It's not clear-cut.

It does actually. Meteor Swarm is NOT a targeted spell. Meteor Swarm is an area affect spell just like Fireball (though Fireball's AoE is smaller). Same casting time, range, the AoE is large and you get several, both normally allow a Reflex save and SR. Juest like Fireball it lists Area and does not list Target.

It has an option RTA to hit a person, which is what the OP is considering adding to Fireball, that denies the person hit a Reflex save (and does 2d6 bashing damage which I would not add to Fireball).

Heck, the spell description of MS even states it is similar to Fireball in many aspects.

Orb spells were brought up as examples of hitting with a RTA usually not allowing a Reflex save.