Help me make a Swiftblade (3.5/PF)

[Gerbah]

Basically, I want to build a rather effective Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327). The group I'm going to play with is using the Pathfinder rules but 3.5 materials are allowed. The trouble I'm running into is I'm having a tough time putting together a Swiftblade.

Here's what I basically have to have:
-Character Level 10
-Race: Some sort of Kobold
-To be Dual-Wielding
-Part of the character's gimmick: He has to dual-wield Human sized Falchions

The last part is where I'm having a bit of an issue (that and dual-wielding), it takes up a number of feats. Even in Pathfinder, where you get a feat every odd level as opposed to every 3rd. My first thought is to get Strongarm Bracers from the magic item compendium, take Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting and Monkeygrip (which I believe has been houseruled for it to be applicable). Considering that is two feats, plus I need TWF and Improved TWF, as well as Dodge and Mobility, well...

So, any ideas? I am not quite set on which base class I would use to enter Swiftblade, and I don't have a huge preference, though I would like a class that has access to "blasting" type spells, just for flavor. I'm not gonna budge on taking Swiftblade, as it is my favorite concept as a prestige class, and I would really love to dual-wield big ol' Falchions, but it may be unfeasible. Any help is greatly appreciated, and I can talk to our DM to try to work something out as well. Thanks.

[Akal Saris]

Ouch...with that many feats required, the first few levels will be rough.

Books used:
Unearthed Arcana (Kobold variant, fighter feats for wizard variants)

Arctic Kobold Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Transmuter 5/Swiftblade 10/Abjurant Champion 3
BAB +17, CL 14

Feats:
1: Two-weapon fighting
2B Rogue: Dodge
3: Mobility
3B Wiz: Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting
5: Monkey Grip
7: Combat Reflexes
7B Wiz: Arcane Strike (Complete Arcane)
8B Swiftblade: Spring Attack
9: Improved Two-weapon fighting
11: Double Hit (Miniatures' Handbook: get two attacks on AOO)
13: Robilar's Gambit: Free AOO on foe that hits you
14B Swiftblade: Bounding Assault
15: Sidestep (Miniatures' Handbook: free 5-ft step after AOO)
17: Combat Casting
19: Quicken Spell

Notes: Barbarian 1 is for pounce from Complete Champion if allowed, otherwise +10ft movement is still nice for the build, plus rage to counteract your horrible physical stats early on (or whirling strike variant for more falchion goodness). I've statted out a build that relies on AOO's to fuel extra attacks and movement, but it could also change to a crit-focused build or more of a caster later on.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

If you want to use cheese, take the feat Dragonwrought from Races of the Dragon, and use the Loredrake sovereign archtype from Dragons of Eberron. That will give you +2 to your Sorcerer level of spellcasting, so you could go Battle Sorcerer 4/ Swiftblade 10/ etc. You can also use the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage to get another +1 to your Sorcerer level of spellcasting.

To make it even better/worse, combine the Stalwart Sorcerer variant from Complete Mage with that, which further gimps your Sorcerer spellcasting ability but gives you increased HP and a free Weapon Focus. But then get the Spellhoarding 'disorder' from Dragon 313, which replaces your gimped Sorcerer spellcasting with Wizard spellcasting of equal level, thus negating all the drawbacks of both class variants. Any higher levels of Sorcerer spellcasting gained would be converted to your Wizard spellcasting level, including from Loredrake and the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage. Plus with Spellhoarding you don't need a spellbook, because you get to write your spells on your scales.

[Gerbah]

Heh, yeah Biffoniacus I don't think they'll let me go THAT crazy, though that is a really neat trick. What is that Spellhoarding thing? Just like, a trait you pick or is it a feat of some sort? I might be able to use that to get around lost spells and such from Battle Sorcerer/Stalwart Sorcerer.

Akal Saris: Huh, I hadn't even considered Barbarian, that pounce feature sounds pretty nice, I just don't know if I want to give up that many caster levels. Thanks for the input!

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

It's actually a template. There's no LA given, but each template in that article is the result of some mental disorder specific to dragons, and each one is curable. Spellhoarding is the only one which doesn't have a drawback that makes it completely unplayable, and it actually ends up being quite good. There are some fairly significant RP implications, though it's entirely up to the DM whether or not to exploit them. Even without Loredrake you could still get the Greater Draconic Rite of Passage and be better off, especially if using Stalwart Battle Sorcerer. Spellhoarding has quite a few other benefits, such as sacrificing your written spells in place of costly material and xp components for spells, sacrificing a written spell to cast it as though from a scroll, and counterspelling an opponent's spell and automatically adding it to your spellhoard. Keep in mind you can copy the same spell more than once onto your scales, so time is the only limit to how many you can have. Plus it gets Int +2, Wis -4, a +5 racial bonus on Spellcraft, and Scribe Scroll and Eschew Materials for free.

[Eldariel]

Just simple Wizard using Martial Wizard should be alright. Wizard 5/Swiftblade 5 going Swiftblade 9 or 10. Then just feat yourself everything; by Wizard 5, you'll have 2 bonus feats and 3 standard feats which should be enough to enter Swiftblade and by level 10 you'll have 6 standard feats and 2 bonus feats which should be enough to do everything you need done.

Getting Shadow Blade [ToB] should probably be a priority though. It may be worthwhile dipping one level of Swordsage though losing that caster level kinda sucks. Still, it gets you Falchion-proficiency & Shadow Hand stance enabling you to pick Shadow Blade. Too bad PF didn't include Dex to Damage-feat. Meh. ...oh yeah, Falchion isn't even a Shadow Hand weapon nor Finessable. Good luck with that; I do hope you start with 18 base Str 'cause 14 is kinda the bare minimum.

[Delta]

I'm currently also trying to get a Swiftblade build going, I'm still undecided between going Human or Grey Elf, would Martial Wizard be a good option to take here, too? And which race would be the better way to go? With GE, I get an Int boost and the MWP (longsword) I need to get into Swiftblade, but as a human, I can take MWP as my bonus feat so I choose a better weapon, would that be worth giving up the racial attribute bonus from GE?

[Eldariel]

Gray Elf...well, if you plan on going Dex-based, GE can work but the Str-penalty is gonna hurt you in the face as Str-based. Fire Elf would probably be better either way. So yeah, that or Sun Elf [Forgotten Realms] is what I suggest; +2 Int/Dex, -2 Con/Cha is pretty damn good for a warrior though the Con-penalty is something you'll have to bruteforce through (by taking high Con).

Human is very good generally, but if you burn the feat on MWP, you're left as just a vanilla race without stat adjustments; as +2 Int, -2 Con is generally worth it for a Wizard, Elf wins out. And yeah, Martial Wizard is obviously incredible for a character unlike to use Scribe Scroll much while needing a bunch of feats just to enter Swiftblade.

[Tinydwarfman]

If you can use FR material, I would strongly suggest a lesser genasi of some variety. Fire is +2 INT -2 CHA, and air is DEX +2, INT +2, WIS –2, CHA –2.
(Genasi are normally outsiders, but become planetouched humanoids with the lesser type variety.)

[Eldariel]

If you can use FR material, I would strongly suggest a lesser genasi of some variety. Fire is +2 INT -2 CHA, and air is DEX +2, INT +2, WIS –2, CHA –2.
(Genasi are planetouched humanoids)

They don't have inherent MWPs though, which means you're now a feat behind again; you could take Dragonborn Fire Elf and end up at +2 Int, -2 Cha but that has the same problem. The LA versions, being Outsiders, have no such issues but...yeah, LA.

[Delta]

If you can use FR material, I would strongly suggest a lesser genasi of some variety. Fire is +2 INT -2 CHA, and air is DEX +2, INT +2, WIS –2, CHA –2.
(Genasi are normally outsiders, but become planetouched humanoids with the lesser type variety.)

Do they get any MWPs? That's one of the main reasons why Elves make such good Swiftblades, they don't have to waste a feat on MWP to enter it.

Answer ninja answers fast!

[Tinydwarfman]

Ah, sorry, I forgot they lose their MWP when they become planetouched, I thought it was just the darkvision.

[Last Laugh]

So clerics CAN qualify easily for swiftblade but can't get the +caster levels?

[Flickerdart]

So clerics CAN qualify easily for swiftblade but can't get the +caster levels?

Yes, but it's not really worth it for...anything.

[Fishy]

So here's my pet Swiftblade build as a level 10 Kobold:

Spellthief 1/Duskblade 3/Spellthief +1/Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 4.

Feats: Expeditious Dodge, Mobility, Versatile Spellcaster, Master Spellthief.

You're not a Wizard, and you're not a Spellhording Dragonwrought Loredrake, but you can turn two of your buddy's cantrips into the best buff spell never printed. Normally have to bend over backwards to fluff-justify Trapsmith, but you're a Kobold, so it's pretty much in your blood. As a variation, take Beguiler or Dread Necromancer to get a whole branch of casting essentially for free.

For your specific build, Pathfinder gives you one more feat, which you can spend on Two Weapon Fighting. Master Spellthief makes the build work, Some form of Dodge and Mobility are necessary, and Versatile Spellcaster is too ridiculously good for you to pass up. So, unless you use Flaws, you're not getting Monkey Grip/Oversized TWF.

If you want to carry a big freakin' weapon, the traditional solution is the Lesser Sunblade from Ravenloft: swings like a short sword, hits like a bastard sword.

[Haven]

So clerics CAN qualify easily for swiftblade but can't get the +caster levels?

Clerics can't cast haste though, can they?

[Person_Man]

Instead of Duel Wielding, a Kobold can take Draconic Tail (Races of the Dragon) and Prehensile Tail (Serpent Kingdoms) to get access to Multiweapon Fighting, which is superior to TWF.

I would also use the variant kobold, which gives you Sleight Build, claws, and bite.

Instead of Monkey Grip, use Strongarm Bracers.

Instead of Dodge, you can take Expeditious Dodge (Races of the Wild, +2 AC when you move at least 40 ft).

And since you must take the cruddy Dodge and Mobility, you should consider Karmic Strike and Elusive Target.

[DragoonWraith]

Clerics can't cast haste though, can they?

The right Domains give it. As a 4th level spell, though, I think? Which would make filling your 3rd level spell slots with Haste somewhat tricky...

[Person_Man]

The right Domains give it. As a 4th level spell, though, I think? Which would make filling your 3rd level spell slots with Haste somewhat tricky...

Time domain (Player's Guide to Faerun) allows Clerics and Archivists to cast Haste as a 3rd level spell. The domain also grants Improved Initiative as a bonus feat, and has True Strike, Permanency, Foresight, and Time Stop on it's spell list. So yes, you could be a Cleric/Swiftblade, but your spellcasting would suck.

Theoretically you could be a Cleric/Wizard/Mystic Theurge/Swiftblade, and end up with 9th level divine and arcane spells at level 20. But I doubt a DM would allow it.

[Eldariel]

The right Domains give it. As a 4th level spell, though, I think? Which would make filling your 3rd level spell slots with Haste somewhat tricky...

You only need Domain Spontaneity in that Domain and cast every slot you've got on that level as Haste. Note that you only need to spend previous level using every level 3/4 slot to cast Haste. Doesn't matter what you prepare or if you prepare nothing at all. As long as you cast Haste from each of those slots for the whole level every day you're fine.

[Gerbah]

Hm, wow, thanks for all the input everyone!

Yeah, I'm thinking of scrapping Monkeygrip since the penalty to attack might just be too much and I need that feat. I was instead thinking of doing something along the lines of:

Stalwart Sorcerer 5 / Swiftblade 9 / Abjurant Champion 5 / Maybe finish off Swiftblade or something else (like Swordsage)? Any thoughts?

See if I can take that Greater Draconic thing to gain a +1 Sorcerer level, which is probably where my feat would go.

I'm already gonna be investing in some Strongarm bracers to make things easier, and the Pathfinder Dodge is a little bit better (+1 dodge AC, not limited to one target). I do plan on picking up Versatile Spellcaster when I can, and Karmic Strike/etc. sound pretty nice too. But I don't think I'm gonna be allowed to uh, "triple-wield" like you mentioned Person Man (DM probably won't allow it and I don't want to break the game too much, just looking for something feasible), though that would be way too much fun.

[Tinydwarfman]

If you're not taking the last level of swiftblade it's because you want 9th level spells, because the swiftblade capstone is stupendous. So basically any PrC that advances casting. If you have Greater Draconic Rite of Passage, then finish swiftblade, no doubt.

[Gerbah]

Okay, yeah I'll probably go Swiftblade 10 then. Also it seems that Robilar's Gambit would be superior to Karmic Strike, correct? Since Karmic Strike requires that they actually strike you while the Swiftblade essentially has a constant 50% miss chance, or am I missing something? I saw that Gambit had steeper requirements for one.

[AbyssKnight]

The Time domain is also in the Spell Compendium (Haste 3rd level). The Celerity domain (also Spell Compedium) has it at 4th level.

Arcane Disciple (Complete Divine) will let you add Time domain to a caster that doesn't normally get Haste (Duskblade for example).

[sofawall]

Gloves of the Balanced Hand (MiC) are handy for getting extra attacks.

Note that you get an extra attack if you have TWF as if you have ITWF, it doesn't actually give it. Therefore it stacks with the one given by ITWF. Totally awesome.

[herrhauptmann]

Clerics can't cast haste though, can they?

Heretic clerics of Lathander can do so as well, but costs an extra 2 feats. (Power of Faerun)

It was stated in conversation with a developer that they were only considering sorc/wiz when they built the swiftblade, that's why the prereqs state "Use all 3rd level slots to cast haste." Even though there are a number of arcane classes and PrC's which also get haste at different levels. (I think trapspringer gets it as a first level spell)

The whole "doesn't advance divine casting" really irritates me. I see it, then wonder why I keep seeing cleric get mentioned in swiftblade builds without houserules.

[Gerbah]

Oh nice sofawall! I'm seriously considering making space to get those but as I stand my gold is spent, though I will seriously get those as soon as I can.

On that topic, anyone have some good items they can recommend? I know about the Belt of Battle or whatever (spend charges to gain move/standard/full I believe), also the Strongarm bracers which are kinda a crux of the character. I'm also looking into the Quicksilver Boots which let me take a free move 2/day, but with this characters move speed that's nothing to sneeze at, plus you can run over water using that free move which is just neat.

[lord_khaine]

Okay, yeah I'll probably go Swiftblade 10 then. Also it seems that Robilar's Gambit would be superior to Karmic Strike, correct? Since Karmic Strike requires that they actually strike you while the Swiftblade essentially has a constant 50% miss chance, or am I missing something? I saw that Gambit had steeper requirements for one

As i recall the gambit has a bab requirement of 12, so its a bit unlikely to get used by anyone who doesnt have a full bab.