Is my friend DMing it wrong?

[a typical hero]

So, I had a little discussion with a friend who is going to dm for us in the near future.

While talking with him, he revealed some informations about the adventure and what was coming at us.

So far so good.

But then he asked me how I want my character to die and that a TPK was a major part of his adventure and is very probably going to happen.

I then told him, that it is the completly wrong approach to the game to be out to kill everyone (at least as the DM ) and that it is a waste of time to play for several hours just to get my character killed, no matter what I do.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against challenging encounters or deadly traps or the like but I don't think anyone should DM with this mindset.

What do you think? How is planned TPK handled in your group?

[Delta]

Well if he actually tells you about this TPK beforehand, maybe he plans on having your characters resurrected afterwards? Just a thought

[Godskook]

But then he asked me how I want my character to die and that a TPK was a major part of his adventure and is very probably going to happen.

1.That's a suspect phrase. If its still possible for you guys to avoid the TPK, and he's warning you about it, that's something, at least.

2.Yeah, setting a TPK in stone is typically considered bad DM-ing in standard D&D. However, you know that going in, so that's not 'quite' as bad. There's also the potential that this is part of a plan to do things in a 'we died, now what?' kind of way.

[pasko77]

So, I had a little discussion with a friend who is going to dm for us in the near future.

While talking with him, he revealed some informations about the adventure and what was coming at us.

So far so good.

But then he asked me how I want my character to die and that a TPK was a major part of his adventure and is very probably going to happen.

I then told him, that it is the completly wrong approach to the game to be out to kill everyone (at least as the DM ) and that it is a waste of time to play for several hours just to get my character killed, no matter what I do.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against challenging encounters or deadly traps or the like but I don't think anyone should DM with this mindset.

What do you think? How is planned TPK handled in your group?

I do it on a regular basis :)
Seriously though, it can be a good narrative device to handle a end campaign.
There is nothing wrong, as long as the story is entertaining. And you get to play a tragic hero.

[valadil]

Maybe? He might just be trying to get a feel for the character. I've played a few games where the character sheet asks for your worst fear or how you'd like to die. They usually get me to think about the character in ways other games don't do, and there's definitely some merit in that.

[Indon]

The last 4E campaign I played, we played as various factions in an ongoing world war - every time the party died, we swapped sides and played the continuation of a campaign, often having to deal with the things our group did for the other faction.

Anyway, at one point our group optimized a bit more than usual, so we were steamrolling everything essentially.

The DM said, "Hey, I want you guys to swap factions again sometime, so I'm going to run you guys up against successively higher challenges until you die."

We ultimately died fighting a dragon, in a CR +6 encounter. We had the dragon down to 50 HP from the 1K it started with.

It was glorious.

[BRC]

I can think of several ways he could TPK the party, while still letting you keep control over your character, and making the game awesome. I'm thinking your going to come back as angry spirits seeking vengence. Or that you're going to die and meet up with some diety who will say "It's not your time. Oh, and BTW, I need you to do somthing for me".

[Killer Angel]

But then he asked me how I want my character to die and that a TPK was a major part of his adventure and is very probably going to happen.

2 possibilities:
A TPK (settled by previous actions by the PCs) is probable: he's warning you.
A TPK is planned: very rarely it can happen, and only with a very good reason. In this case, he shouldn't NEVER tell the players before.

I (as a DM) did both of these, each only once, in 20 years of DMing.

Both of these, are not the case

[Myou]

If he plans a TPK when you don't want one he's doing it wrong.

[TaintedLight]

If he plans a TPK when you don't want one he's doing it wrong.

Agreed. I don't think there's a wrong way to DM a campaign so long as everyone playing is fully aware of how it will work. If the players feel like a TPK would be a fulfilling moment, especially in a horror campaign or some similarly high-mortality genre, by all means go for it. If just getting slaughtered like a bunch of punks is against what the players are looking for in a gaming experience, don't slaughter them like a bunch of punks.

[Tinydwarfman]

This depends. I strongly feel it will be but a plot device. The PCs will be turned to stone, only to be revived a hundred years later when the BBEG has taken over the world. I don't see anything wrong with that. If he asks you roll up new characters however, you need to have a talk with him.

[Tiki Snakes]

So, I had a little discussion with a friend who is going to dm for us in the near future.

While talking with him, he revealed some informations about the adventure and what was coming at us.

So far so good.

But then he asked me how I want my character to die and that a TPK was a major part of his adventure and is very probably going to happen.

I then told him, that it is the completly wrong approach to the game to be out to kill everyone (at least as the DM ) and that it is a waste of time to play for several hours just to get my character killed, no matter what I do.

Don't get me wrong, I don't have anything against challenging encounters or deadly traps or the like but I don't think anyone should DM with this mindset.

What do you think? How is planned TPK handled in your group?

No, he's doing it differently.
Basically, you need to get more info;

Is it just a possibility that he's warning you about (So that you know going in that it could be very deadly, Tomb of Horrors style).
Is it a plot-point that he's working on? If so, is it likely to be a case of running a few sessions with prologue-characters essentially before starting with the Real main characters? etc.

It sounds plot related. Given that you know this going in, then you have an opportunity here; You are being allowed to plan a character, and the character's tragic, horrific, or hilarious death in advance. This means that your character can fit the definition of a genuine tragedy (ie, knowing beforehand that it's all going to end in tears), as espoused in, amongst other things, Romeo and Juliet, 300 and Halo Reach (whose tagline is something like 'Before it even begins, you know how it will end).

Now, if it turns out that you get the epic-tragedy arc and then somehow manage to get a second chance with the same character anyway, that should be treated entirely as a bonus.

I'd advise giving it a shot, but play up to the tragic fate. Give your character heartwrenchingly normal or epic goals. Maybe, after this one last mission, he will finally retire / Go home and see his kids one last time / buy that farm with rabbits and the alfalfa, etc.

[bosssmiley]

How is planned TPK handled in your group?

Planned TPK? You can't schedule spontaneity.

TPKs are an emergent result of game play, not a plot hammer for the DM to wield.

"No! Bad DM. Lrn2play!"

[Caphi]

It seems like you need more information? If it's part of a big plot thing he has planned, see how much useful information he can give you without spoiling the surprise. At the very least, confirm that it is a big plot thing, and if it turns out to be, go with it.

[Yakk]

Maybe he has a revenant plot coming up, where you get killed and raised by the Raven Queen. Who knows?

[SpikeFightwicky]

Reminds of an older Ravenloft adventure I have where a TPK is part of official TSR module:

Spoiler

Show

The party's killed by the Headless Horseman very early on the quest, and are brought back to life (with their heads still seperated) by Azalin because he has some tasks to be completed by people with the right motivation (get their heads back on their bodies if they succeed) -> The whole thing culminates in Azalin messing up the grand conjunction ritual... it was epic!)

[DabblerWizard]

What does the forum think of these distinctions and examples?


Types of Total Party Kills

Standard TPK: Otherwise known as accidental character death, comes about as a result of (1) poor strategic planning, (2) statistically improbable dice rolls, or (3) losing a battle that players thought could be won

Irregular TPK: Non accidental character death, comes about as a result of (1) being unable to avoid unreasonably difficult monsters, (2) allowing otherwise beatable creatures to kill the characters, (3) losing a battle that players realized couldn't be won but chose to stay in

Technically the situation is only a TPK if all characters are killed during the session.

[Accersitus]

Sounds like the perfect opportunity to play a paladin if you ask me. The DM seems to want someone to say "heroic sacrifice", and since it is a planned TPK, I'm guessing he has a plan around it. (Could be even more epic if you survive whatever is probable to cause the TPK against all odds.)

[dragonfan6490]

In the second session of the campaign I'm currently running, I had a planned TPK. I had my players roll up a level 1 character and a level 20 character. They played the level 20 character for two sessions and then TPK'd. The next session started 300 years later with the players being the descendants of their level 20 characters.

My opinion: DMs planning to TPK a party almost always has to be plot related. If its just a one shot, then its more forgivable.

[Ormagoden]

"Good work. Sleep well, I'll most likely kill you in the morning."

[Mauther]

What it ultimately comes down to is: do you trust your DM? People have given a couple different plot reasons a TPK could be done. If you trust your DM, enjoy the ride. If you don’t, just mention that your not really down with the planned massacre and that its diminishing your enjoyment of the game. But to be honest, if you don’t trust your DM, the party wipe really is the least of your worries.

[Iban]

I agree with the guys saying that it could be a plot device. What if your DM wanted to kill you off, to then be able to have a deity of some description send you back with some nice little buffs (like immortality?)



Oh and,

buy that farm with rabbits and the alfalfa

love this book :)

[HunterOfJello]

If a DM is going to start off with a TPK then he should start with, "each of you awaken in a strange environment after dieing in epic battles" (or something along those lines). He shouldn't make them die, dying feels lame if its in the player's control. Having an adventurer come to their end before everything starts is somewhat acceptable though. All adventurer's face great danger and most don't survive it.


Otherwise post-TPK sequences should be used for backup if the party ends up dying unexpectedly and the DM needs to still continue the story. IE "you all wake up togther in a brightly lit field, in the sky you can see several moons and a purple sun" (since they're in an afterlife).

[Kurald Galain]

But then he asked me how I want my character to die and that a TPK was a major part of his adventure and is very probably going to happen.

That doesn't sound so great. On the other hand, he may be warning you that his campaign has certain dangerous enemies, which should influence your character's behavior.

[Private-Prinny]

This depends. I strongly feel it will be but a plot device. The PCs will be turned to stone, only to be revived a hundred years later when the BBEG has taken over the world. I don't see anything wrong with that. If he asks you roll up new characters however, you need to have a talk with him.

I think this hits the nail on the head. If the BBEG kills you, it's a big deal. If you get resurrected after he takes over the world, it helps establish the BBEG as the BBEG. And let's face it, seeing what happens after the BBEG wins is better than just starting out with a winning BBEG.

[Taelas]

As long as your friend is doing something your group would not consider to be fun, he's DMing it wrong. There is really no other way to put it.

Expectations can be subverted, even if you think something might not be fun. That does not mean it will happen, however.

You have to ask yourself this: Do you trust him to DM? If you don't, don't play the game or ask him to reconsider what he's doing. If you do trust him... well, you wouldn't be asking this if you did, would you?