Alignment Debate Settled

[Sydonai]

Many people beleive that in D&D alignment determines one's action, this is FALSE! Our actions as a PC determine the alignment of the alignment of the PC, this is true.

Of course this is just my view, I want to hear you're views.
Let us now discuss this topic.





P.S. You can scream at and insult the rules, or someone's boneheaded actions, but please don't insult the people themselves.

[WarKitty]

In the general case: I view your alignment as a sort of shorthand for some aspects of your personality. So acting consistently "out of alignment" without a reason would just be bad roleplaying imo.

Now, there are classes with alignment restrictions. In many cases this seems to be a result of having a patron deity of some sort. It certainly stands to reason that I wouldn't want to tick my deity off if I knew it meant losing my divine abilities...which might induce me to do/not do things I otherwise would.

[Prime32]

[chiasaur11]

Settled? Settled?

HA!

Or, more accurately, hahahahahahaha. And so on.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Many people beleive that in D&D alignment determines one's action, this is FALSE! Our actions as a PC determine the alignment of the alignment of the PC, this is true.

This is false.

Your Alignment determines your character's general approach to life.

Your actions as a PC confirms for the DM whether or not the Alignment written on your character sheet is the same as the one you are following. If it is not, he may ask you to erase what you have written and write down your real alignment.

A creature’s general moral and personal attitudes are represented by its alignment.

Simple proof
If your contention were correct, a Helm of Opposite Alignment would be useless on PCs - the Alignment written on the sheet is irrelevant for guiding the PCs' actions.

[Gan The Grey]

I feel like alot of people view class alignment restrictions as an 'after the fact' restriction, as in, you become a paladin, and in order to maintain the abilities of your class, you must develop and maintain a lawful good alignment.

In truth, class alignment restrictions are meant to show that only a specific type of personality has what it takes to become a specific class, that a certain mindset is needed in order to set out on the path that leads into said class. Kind of like saying free thinking artsy types aren't meant to be accountants. They just don't really have the right mindsets to really good at that profession and be happy. You can't just become an accountant and try to change your personality to suit the profession. It doesn't work.

That being said, it would almost make more sense to develop a personality for a character long before you choose his class. That way you can support his personality with the proper set of skills and abilities, rather than suddenly finding yourself hogtied by an alignment restriction that doesn't exactly mesh with your intended play style.

My 2 cents.

Your Alignment determines your character's general approach to life.

I think this is backwards. Should not your character's general approach to life determine your alignment? It sounds the same, but it works out different mechanically.

[ericgrau]

Just because your alignment and actions are equal doesn't mean your alignment needs to cause your actions. Your actions may cause your alignment, even by RAW. This would solve a lot of problems and bad stereotypes if it were practiced more. Or at least remove the excuses given for playing this way.

As it is some people act stupid just because they're lawful/chaotic/good/evil/neutral. Wait, that's every alignment. Something's not right here. It's almost as if people will find an excuse to act stupid no matter what...

[Riffington]

Being happy makes you smile, and smiling makes you happy.

Seems like alignment can likewise work both ways simultaneously.

[drengnikrafe]

I have tried, twice, to abolish the alignment system from my game group. It has failed. My PCs tell me "We like it, because it tells us how our characters should generally act, and serve as a simple reminder of what my characters personality is like", or something to that effect. On the other hand, they almost exclusively play CN characters.

That's my personal experience.

[Swordgleam]

Simple proof
If your contention were correct, a Helm of Opposite Alignment would be useless on PCs - the Alignment written on the sheet is irrelevant for guiding the PCs' actions.

I like this. On the other hand, Paladins can Fall, so your actions must be able to change your alignment.

[Gan The Grey]

Being happy makes you smile, and smiling makes you happy.

Seems like alignment can likewise work both ways simultaneously.

To a point, yes, this is true. However, I would say (and I would expect many to agree with me, forgive me if this is a fallacy of some sort) that being happy tends to lead to smiling more often than smiling leads to being happy.

The same can be said of alignment. It is much easier to lay out the general personality of your character and apply an alignment tag than to take up a specific alignment and try to design a character around it. Well, easier might not be the right word, but I would have to say one would tend to have a better understand of his character and be happier with the way he plays him if he constructs his personality first. I believe that building a character this way could also help solve the problems of maintaining an alignment restricted class.

[Swordgleam]

To a point, yes, this is true. However, I would say (and I would expect many to agree with me, forgive me if this is a fallacy of some sort) that being happy tends to lead to smiling more often than smiling leads to being happy.

They actually did a scientific study where they found that smiling does make you happier, even if you are unhappy and force yourself to smile because some guy in a lab coat is telling you to. I can't remember the exact mechanism, but I promise that it sounded legit to me at the time.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Hmmm... Perhaps this thread should be renamed to Alignment Debate Initiated.

[Swordgleam]

Hmmm... Perhaps this thread should be renamed to Alignment Debate Initiated.

Don't be silly. No one's bringing up heinous examples of DM/player abuse of the alignment system or talking about how alignment killed their cat yet. Compared to most alignment "debates," we're all in lockstep opinion-wise.

[Touchy]

I feel like alot of people view class alignment restrictions as an 'after the fact' restriction, as in, you become a paladin, and in order to maintain the abilities of your class, you must develop and maintain a lawful good alignment.

In truth, class alignment restrictions are meant to show that only a specific type of personality has what it takes to become a specific class, that a certain mindset is needed in order to set out on the path that leads into said class. Kind of like saying free thinking artsy types aren't meant to be accountants. They just don't really have the right mindsets to really good at that profession and be happy. You can't just become an accountant and try to change your personality to suit the profession. It doesn't work.

That being said, it would almost make more sense to develop a personality for a character long before you choose his class. That way you can support his personality with the proper set of skills and abilities, rather than suddenly finding yourself hogtied by an alignment restriction that doesn't exactly mesh with your intended play style.

My 2 cents.



I think this is backwards. Should not your character's general approach to life determine your alignment? It sounds the same, but it works out different mechanically.

Excepts it vigorously enforces that alignment most of the time

[TheMadLinguist]

Man, I was playing an awakened cat warlock, but my character decided to obey traffic laws so he didn't get run over by a cart. Next thing I know, my character is dead, since cats and warlocks are always chaotic.

[Graymayre]

Alignment is decided by actions which is decided by alignment which is decided by actions which is decided by alignment...

[Gan The Grey]

Excepts it vigorously enforces that alignment most of the time

Huh? I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say here.

Man, I was playing an awakened cat warlock, but my character decided to obey traffic laws so he didn't get run over by a cart. Next thing I know, my character is dead, since cats and warlocks are always chaotic.

Yeah, not sure what you are trying to say here either, except that if you view alignment as an always black-white thing, you are going to have major problems playing DnD. Or...if you are saying you decided to play a cat warlock, and then decided to act lawfully, then you probably should have done exactly what I've been saying all along.

They actually did a scientific study where they found that smiling does make you happier, even if you are unhappy and force yourself to smile because some guy in a lab coat is telling you to. I can't remember the exact mechanism, but I promise that it sounded legit to me at the time.

Oh don't get me wrong. I've heard of this too. This is why companies train their employees to smile when they answer the phone. I was just saying that a happy person smiles more often that an unhappy smiling person becomes happy.

[Swordgleam]

Man, I was playing an awakened cat warlock, but my character decided to obey traffic laws so he didn't get run over by a cart. Next thing I know, my character is dead, since cats and warlocks are always chaotic.

I read that as "awkward cat warlock" the first time. Do we have a new hit sitcom on our hands?

[Abd al-Azrad]

Well, since we know that Alignment can change based on character actions, and character actions can change based on (or, more appropriately, be guided by) Alignment, it would seem that the two issues of moral categorization and choices of action are more difficultly entwined than any simple black-and-white argument could indicate.

Let's note that D&D is not (gasp!) the Real World (TM) and it is one's Alignment that is pertinent to many, many in-game effects and rulings. Let's also note that Evil characters can (and frequently do) take questionably Good actions, and Good PCs get away with murder on a regular basis. This would seem to indicate that actions are not strictly guided by Alignment, and that Alignment does not reflect actions with 100% accuracy. In other words, the two are related, but not causally related.

Alignment is a real thing in D&D. It reflects a character's outlook and morality. It changes if a character's morality changes. Actions are also reflections of a character's moral choices: will I kill this Neutral king, knowing he will plunge his kingdom into war for stupid (but not Evil) reasons if I do not? Both Alignment, and choices, are guided by morality.

Alignment is a tag that celestial bureaucrats use to simplify morality among mortals, so they can more easily sort the millions of mortals they have to deal with. Your choices are guided not by your Alignment, but by your morality.

Go go gadget confuse the issue!

[Math_Mage]

Both Alignment, and choices, are guided by morality.

What happened to ethicality?

[The Tygre]

.............................Chaos (I do what I want)
...............................................+
...............................................+
Good (For others)<-----------Neutral---------> Evil (For myself)
...............................................+
...............................................+
..............................Law (I do what I must)

Said it once, and I'll say it again. Although I've always liked the concept of alignment points or an alignment score. Kind of like virtues in Exalted, only with the alignment axis.

[taltamir]

I am going to share some profound truth here...
declaring "the debate is settled because my opinion is right" does not actually settle a debate. If everyone did not think their (differing) opinion was right, there would have been nothing to debate about.

[krossbow]

.............................Chaos (I do what I want)
...............................................+
...............................................+
Good (For others)<-----------Neutral---------> Evil (For myself)
...............................................+
...............................................+
..............................Law (I do what I must)

Said it once, and I'll say it again. Although I've always liked the concept of alignment points or an alignment score. Kind of like virtues in Exalted, only with the alignment axis.

But what about the ones who are dead?

[Dust]

Well, there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying 'til you run out of cake.

[taltamir]

Well, there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying 'til you run out of cake.

and you make a neat gun for the people who are still alive!

[krossbow]

and you make a neat gun for the people who are still alive!

I'm not Even angry! I'm being so sincere right now!

[Swordgleam]

I'm not Even angry! I'm being so sincere right now!

Even though you broke my heart and killed me. And tore me to pieces.

[Harperfan7]

C-c-c-combo Breaker!!!

[The Glyphstone]

Even though you broke my heart and killed me. And tore me to pieces.

And threw all the pieces into a fire.