Awesome Blow & Goliath

[SethFahad]

Ok, may a Goliath due to powerfull build take the Awesome Blow feat?

If he may not, can he take it nevertheless, and use it only when he Rages (RoS RCF Mountain Rage = Large size)?

[licidy]

My interpretation of powerful build is that a Goliath counts as one size large whenever it would be beneficial to be so. Is it beneficial to be 1 category larger in regards to that feat? If yes, then go for it. I had a DM give a similar ruling with regards to a Goliath War Hulk

[AslanCross]

A goliath is only considered Large for the purpose of bonuses (Grapple, Bull Rush, etc) when it's advantageous to him. He does not meet the requirements.

As for the latter, he can't take the feat in the first place. You can only take the feat if you're actually large, and if I'm not mistaken, feat requirements always take only permanent values into consideration (hence an 11 Int character with a Headband of intellect +2 can't take Combat Expertise).

The DM can houserule it, why not? But by RAW, no.

[2xMachina]

More cheese?

Can we:

Use large weapons.

Reach is higher.

Takes up 1 square when defending.

Take up 4 squares when attacking.

Take +Str/Con according to large, but Dex according to Medium.

[Kaiyanwang]

A goliath is only considered Large for the purpose of bonuses (Grapple, Bull Rush, etc) when it's advantageous to him. He does not meet the requirements.

IIRC, Races of stone has feats that have "Large Size" as requirement, but the same feats say a goliath qualify due to his large size (think about the one to sling allies, or knockback). Of course, this could be valid only for those specific feats, or I miss something.

As for the latter, he can't take the feat in the first place. You can only take the feat if you're actually large, and if I'm not mistaken, feat requirements always take only permanent values into consideration (hence an 11 Int character with a Headband of intellect +2 can't take Combat Expertise).

One of the FAQs (IIRC, the ELH one) says the opposite (even if, if you ask me, I don't allow it in my games and I use your interpretation).

[Critical]

RAW, no. RAI, yes.

[Master_Rahl22]

The Powerful Build ability specifies when you can count as large, thus you don't qualify for Awesome Blow. Also, the feats that say "Must be Large, or a Goliath" are specifically allowing Goliaths to qualify even though they're not large.

I seem to remember differently, that a character with 11 Int and a Headband of Intellect +2 can in fact take Combat Expertise, they just lose its benefit if they take the headband off. I'm AFB, so I can't say for sure though.

[Person_Man]

FYI, whether or not your DM rules that you can take Awesome Blow, you shouldn't. It's a Standard Action. You're much better off with Knockback and Shock Trooper, which accomplishes the same thing as an attack action with a much higher chance of success.

[PhoenixRivers]

From Races of Stone:

FLING ALLY [GENERAL]
You can launch your comrades into the air as if they were
thrown weapons.
Prerequisites: Str 19, Rock Hurling or racial ability to
throw rocks, size Large or larger (goliaths qualify by virtue
of their powerful build racial trait).

FLING ENEMY [GENERAL]
When you’re wrestling a foe, you can lift him into the air
and hurl him.
Prerequisites: Str 19, Rock Hurling or racial ability to
throw rocks, size Large or larger (goliaths qualify by virtue
of their powerful build racial trait).

KNOCKBACK [GENERAL]
By putting your bulk behind a blow, you can push your
enemy backward.
Prerequisites: Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, size
Large or larger (goliaths qualify by virtue of their powerful
build racial trait).

While the argument goes both ways, there's certainly a strong argument for the intent.

Every feat in the ROS (The book that introduces Powerful Build, IIRC) that requires Large size calls Powerful Build out as qualifying for it. It doesn't list it seperately, it states that goliaths qualify for the "Size category: Large" due to powerful build. While it isn't universal, it is a strong argument.

[jiriku]

Yup. A reasonable interpretation is that any race with powerful build would qualify for those feats. And once the precedent is established, it's reasonable to apply it to feats printed in previous books that required large size.

And from a balance perspective, what's the harm? I say melee can have nice things. (Although, as Person_Man noted, Awesome Blow doesn't really qualify as a nice thing, since you give up considerable damage potential to use it, and better alternatives exist).

[Master_Rahl22]

Well then, I stand corrected. I remembered those feats as having different wording. I'd say then that Goliaths qualify for stuff that requires Size: Large.

[FishAreWet]

Q&A explicitly says no to Awesome Blow. Because that's not what Powerful Build does.

THIS IS WHAT IT DOES.
"When a Goliath is subject to a size modifier... ....may count as one size larger."
"Goliath counts as one size larger for determining effects of Imp Grab and Swallow Whole"
"Goliath may use larger size weapons"
"Goliath does not change space or reach"

Those are the only times he counts as larger.

To finish it up, neither RAW nor explicitly expressed RAI support this. The feats in RoS are the exceptions.

[SethFahad]

Thank you all. Some more questions.

A goliath can use Large weapons without penalties. Good.
What if you give him strongarm bracers. Is he now allowed to use a Huge 2-handed weapon for even more damage?

Where can I find the actual size of a large weapon or a huge weapon? (f.e. 3ft long or 6ft long etc)

[tyckspoon]

Thank you all. Some more questions.

A goliath can use Large weapons without penalties. Good.
What if you give him strongarm bracers. Is he now allowed to use a Huge 2-handed weapon for even more damage?

If you go actually look up the bracers, you will find that they specifically do not stack with Powerful Build. So.. no.

[SethFahad]

Ooook... what about Monkey grip feat???

[The Glyphstone]

Likewise no, because they both have the same wording, allowing the character to wield weapons one size above 'normal'. For a medium character, that is Medium. so Powerful Build and Monkey Grip both allow Large weapons independently.

Also, Monkey grip sucks, run away from it.

[tyckspoon]

Still no, thanks to a technicality of wording- Monkey Grip doesn't reference the size of weapons you can effectively wield, it references the character's actual size. You're still Medium, Monkey Grip gets you to Large, Powerful Build also gets you to Large but without the hit penalty.

[PhoenixRivers]

Q&A explicitly says no to Awesome Blow. Because that's not what Powerful Build does.

THIS IS WHAT IT DOES.
"When a Goliath is subject to a size modifier... ....may count as one size larger."
"Goliath counts as one size larger for determining effects of Imp Grab and Swallow Whole"
"Goliath may use larger size weapons"
"Goliath does not change space or reach"

Those are the only times he counts as larger.

To finish it up, neither RAW nor explicitly expressed RAI support this. The feats in RoS are the exceptions.

That is debatable.

You need to be XXX (YYY matches this because of ZZZ)

That's an implication that ZZZ counts as XXX for this purpose.

If it said "Size Large or larger, OR the Powerful build trait", you'd have a point.

As is, you're right as to the strict RAW of it, but there is an argument for RAI based interpretation, and a reading of the feats as justification, rather than exceptions. It's not RAW, and thus should not be a Q&A answer.

[SethFahad]

Still no, thanks to a technicality of wording- Monkey Grip doesn't reference the size of weapons you can effectively wield, it references the character's actual size. You're still Medium, Monkey Grip gets you to Large, Powerful Build also gets you to Large but without the hit penalty.

Right. It's ok, no big deal (only 1d6 more).

Thanks everyone.

[Runestar]

You would only be able to use awesome blow on small or smaller foes. Not really spectacular, if you ask me.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would say that if you use the ACF to achieve Large Size while raging, then you can, indeed, qualify for the feat during such a rage, and can only use it during said rage.

Ironically, it's one of the loopholes I used when building the Hulk as a Stoneblessed Strongheart Halfling with Mountanous Rage.

[lsfreak]

Go with Knockback. It's a lot better than Awesome Blow because you can get a full attack in (Knockback one person, finish attack on another; full attack one guy and Knockback on one of the last hits; knockback everyone if you're surrounded).

[LichPrinceAlim]

Go with Knockback. It's a lot better than Awesome Blow because you can get a full attack in (Knockback one person, finish attack on another; full attack one guy and Knockback on one of the last hits; knockback everyone if you're surrounded).

or get whirlwind attack and combo that with knockback and wield bladed flails and become a living weed-wacker

[Keld Denar]

Whirlwind Attack is bad due to the fact that you have to sink 4 crappy feats into it (5 including WW Attack). Also, the after sinking that many feats into it, you still don't get to use it every round unless you intentionally set yourself up in a bad situation.

A better choice would be to invest in the Whirling property (MIC, +1 equiv) on your weapon. This lets you WW Attack 3 times per day, which, in most cases, should be enough. That way you don't have to set 5 perfectly useful and happy feats on fire through ritual sacrifice for a moderately useful ability.