Class Return on Investment

[Toliudar]

We have a great tier system now that helps to articulate what classes tend to have the most flexibility, and with a lot of preparation, can be overwelmingly powerful.

What I've come to wonder is this: for a gamer who doesn't want to spend half an hour picking spells before each new day, and who doesn't want to spend six hours optimizing, are there classes that offer some flexibility and flavour out of the box? What classes would you steer a lazy. busy or beginning player towards.

Let's assume, for the sake of parity, that I'm looking at a 5th and a 10th level campaign. Because, well, I am.

[krossbow]

warblade or crusader, great out of the box, hard to screw up.

However, keep in mind their flavor is drastically different, and they are essentially melee wizards.

[Eldariel]

Warblade. They work out great out of the box. As a corollary, every martial adept is a good choice. Crusader is notable for having few schools and lots of maneuvers known making the decisions pretty simple early on.

If not that, there's always Dragonfire Adept, Warlock (Invocation-users tends to be pretty simple in having versatile abilities but not too much decision-making, especially not daily) and Factotum (sure, you gotta know the skills and your class features and manage Inspiration, but that's no worse than managing your HP).

And Binder if they're into that sorta thing, as while there's a lot of options for Binding, things are really straight-forward after making the Pact each day. And making one-two Pacts > choosing 50 spells in simplicity..

[holywhippet]

Bard. You only learn new spells as you level up and you can each spell level a different number of times based on level and charisma.

They aren't combat machines, but they can help out a lot both during combat and adventuring due to their knowledge skills and talking skills.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Druid. As long as you take natural spell, you can do pretty much whatever you want.

[Dr Bwaa]

Duskblade 20 is a pretty solid, user-friendly build. Much like Warblade & Crusader.

[deuxhero]

Focuses casters (Well the tier 3 pair) know everything on their class list, so outside of the bonus spells known every few levels, there is no need to pick spells.

[krossbow]

CW Samurai. You will be death incarnate.

[deuxhero]

I thought that was Truenamer.

[IthilanorStPete]

Druid. As long as you take natural spell, you can do pretty much whatever you want.

No. Really, no - Druids are one of the most annoying to deal with, work-intensive classes. Not only do you have to deal with the whole preapring spells rigamarole, you have to keep up with your AC, and keep up with your Wildshape forms...it's not what the OP's looking for.

[DSCrankshaw]

Beguiler--use any spell on their list at any time, and they've got a lot of good ones.

[taltamir]

an interesting question OP...
I believe the solution is extremely simple:
1. you want to spend the least time building the class (that means going over class abilities and learning to optimize as well)
2. you want to do the least bookkeping
3. you want the most "power (flexibility)" possible out of the box.

The problem is that learning any class is an investment of time.
For example, out of the core only, I would say barbarian is a solid choice. But even though most of its power is built in, it doesn't have too much power in the end (still a guy with a sharp stick) and optimizing it requires learning a lot of obscure rules...

So what is that extremely simple solution you ask? the best solution is to let someone ELSE do all the work for you... go on brilliantgameologists. Get a premade optimized character of your choice that has no build in bookkeeping (excludes most casters... although ones like warlock work fine). Your time invested is nil and your rewards are great.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

No. Really, no - Druids are one of the most annoying to deal with, work-intensive classes. Not only do you have to deal with the whole preapring spells rigamarole, you have to keep up with your AC, and keep up with your Wildshape forms...it's not what the OP's looking for.

I disagree. You CAN put alot of effort into Druid to play them as the peer of the mighty wizard. But, they are very playable with a minimal time investment and will easily act as tier 2-3's if you do the following.

1. Take Natural Spell
2. Prepare stats for three wildshape forms a tank, a flier and perhaps a utiliity form like a tracker or burrower, you really shouldn't need anymore forms especially if you keep the notes from old utility forms around just in case.
3. Pick whatever spells look cool just open the phb to the spell descriptions and go wild.
4. Use the other feats on whatever you want mellee, summoning whatever.

[Eldariel]

The issue is having to stat out:
1) Yourself
2) Your common wildshape forms
3) Your animal companion
4) Your common summons
5) Your spell list

Whatever that is, that's not little work.

[a typical hero]

I disagree. You CAN put alot of effort into Druid to play them as the peer of the mighty wizard. But, they are very playable with a minimal time investment and will easily act as tier 2-3's if you do the following.
...

I disagree your disagree (if that makes any sense in english ;) )

If you don't put some effort into druid, you will end up with a ...hm... jack of all trades who can't do anything really well.

Even if he follows your advice on what to do, he will have to read through a big amount of spells for every grade (along with the choice which spells to prepare each morning) and he will have to read through several monster manuals for his wildshape forms / animal companions every few levels.

A Tier 1 caster isn't something I would recommend to someone who is asking for simplicity and a character who can pull his weight out of the box.

I'd say go for Tome of Battle, Magic of Incarnum, Invocation-user... everything works just fine.

[Starbuck_II]

We have a great tier system now that helps to articulate what classes tend to have the most flexibility, and with a lot of preparation, can be overwelmingly powerful.

What I've come to wonder is this: for a gamer who doesn't want to spend half an hour picking spells before each new day, and who doesn't want to spend six hours optimizing, are there classes that offer some flexibility and flavour out of the box? What classes would you steer a lazy. busy or beginning player towards.

Let's assume, for the sake of parity, that I'm looking at a 5th and a 10th level campaign. Because, well, I am.

Factotum can be good out of the box. Just take Font of Inspiration as a feat each time you can.

[Vizzerdrix]

Sorcerer. No daily spell picking (we hates daily spell prep! ), a small number of feat to keep track of, and almost no class abilities to worry about. However, you have access to Arcane casting, and what feats you do get can make that as powerful as you feel like getting.

[Kylarra]

ToB and Warlock/DFA are probably your best bets for easy power with minimal effort required.

I'd say go for Tome of Battle, Magic of Incarnum, Invocation-user... everything works just fine.

Incarnum only goes here if you already know the system though. Otherwise it's at least as much effort to understand and index what you want to do as copying forms for a druid.

[Coidzor]

Well, we probably want to be looking at tiers 3 and 4 here, since that cuts out the really bookkeeping intensive of the casters out of the loop as well as the things which don't exactly have much of an ability to give a return.

Spoiler

Show

[Tier 3] Examples: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Crusader, Bard, Swordsage, Binder (without access to the summon monster vestige), Wildshape Varient Ranger, Duskblade, Factotum, Warblade, Psionic Warrior

[Tier 4] Examples: Rogue, Barbarian, Warlock, Warmage, Scout, Ranger, Hexblade, Adept, Spellthief, Marshal, Fighter (Dungeoncrasher Variant)

Investment-wise, of these, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Psionic Warrior, Duskblade, Warmage, Hexblade, Adept, Ranger, and Spellthief are casters. Plus Warlock, but, well, yeah... And the martial adepts are, well, martial adepts. I'm not exactly very up to date on ToB, so I don't know how much effort it takes once the basal attempt at familiarization is done. So these are basically at or below the ceiling of investment, a few might be over the ceiling of investment worthwhile to this particular exercise.

By the other criterion, return on said investment, psionic warrior, factotum, the martial adepts, and the beguiler seem to be regarded as the best mix of powerful and versatile on the boards. Making them basically the upper levels of that.

Though, it skews a bit, depending on how important book keeping in terms of building the character in the first place or choosing an array of spells day in and day out is,since that'll refine the ability to determine all this.

[Ernir]

The ToB classes usually end up competent even if you barely put any thought at all into the build.
Keeping track of the maneuvers readied, though, can get a bit messy (especially in the case of the Crusader). Solution for the scatterbrained or inexperienced: Maneuver cards. Print them out and keep them in seperate stacks, all the bookkeeping is now done.

Druid. As long as you take natural spell, you can do pretty much whatever you want.

Which... pretty much is the problem.

Building a Druid is easy as hell. You don't have to build for anything, because, indeed, as long as you take Natural Spell, you can do whatever you want.
Which brings the problem away from building the character to playing the character. You can cast spells (from a list of dozens to hundreds, which have to be picked every day), you have an animal companion (pick it once, but you have to look up its stats forever), you have wildshaping (you can take only three or so favourite forms you change into, but that's still four times as many stat blocks as the party Big Stupid Fighter has), and the king of all bookkeeping, summons.

Druids are not what I'd call simple to play. I'd say they are the most complicated core class.

[taltamir]

While tier 1 classes are a huge investment if done yourself... if you just follow one guide to the letter then you can end up with less work then doing a martial character yourself.
every level you take exactly what the guide tells you, and you only bother reading about and learning the spells the guide tells you are awesome.
you CAN even be a wizard and still have an easy time...

[Choco]

Don't forget the Warmage, it also just uses all spells on it's small spell list. All you gotta think about is what spell you want to use at any given time.

[Gnaeus]

Don't forget the Warmage, it also just uses all spells on it's small spell list. All you gotta think about is what spell you want to use at any given time.

Yes, but OP wanted flexibility as well, and Warmage alone doesn't have that. All it does well is blast. It can get flexibility, with good choices of PRCs, but things like Rainbow Warsnake really crank up the complexity scale.

[Toliudar]

Thanks all, and I'll keep checking in for more feedback. For the RL players I'm dealing with, the Beguiler/Warmage/DN trio are indeed going to seem attractive. Although the players have to learn a lot of spells (from their prospective) at each level. Warlock and the ToB classes are great ideas - especially if I help walk them through their invocation/maneuver selection.

Yes, power/optimization is NOT the priority, but ending up with 4-5 characters who each contribute, and can be played by somebody who can figure out what their attack bonus is THIS time.

I haven't played a factotum, but my sense was that there was a their own mechanic - the inspiration points? - to keep track of, plus picking spells when you want to access that option. Advice from those who have played one? Remember, I'm not looking for optimized, but a playable Jack of trades. As easy as a bard/rogue?

[RagnaroksChosen]

Tob/Warlocks/barbarian

I believe ranged scouts too but that's my personally opinion.

What about duskblades pritty much power attack and then there channeling and you got a great tank dmg dealer.

[Greenish]

For the RL players I'm dealing with, the Beguiler/Warmage/DN trio are indeed going to seem attractive.

I love the "knows all spells on list, spontaneous casting" thing they have.

One option that hasn't been mentioned yet: Psion. Has a limited list of powers like sorcerer, but there are some nice flexible powers out there. You only have to pick new powers when you level up. In normal play, you only have to keep track of power points, which isn't any harder than keeping score of your hitpoints.

[BenTheJester]

Duskblade is a good choice, even if it is a spellcasting class, you have a relatively small spell list, so the choices aren't that hard to make

Dragonfire Adepts are really good out of the box. They can't really be screwed up, as few of their invocations/breath effects are useless, and you can take pretty much any feat you like.

[Eldariel]

I haven't played a factotum, but my sense was that there was a their own mechanic - the inspiration points? - to keep track of, plus picking spells when you want to access that option. Advice from those who have played one? Remember, I'm not looking for optimized, but a playable Jack of trades. As easy as a bard/rogue?

Well, Inspiration Points aren't tough to track; you just have certain number, basically all you do spends one-two points and you get new ones per encounter. It's no worse than tracking your HP or actions.

And while they do get arcane spells, they get a very limited number of them so it's not that much trouble to prepare them, especially since they aren't that critical to the class's power.

[Ormagoden]

Fighter is really easy too!

Feat 1 Improved toughness

all other feats

Toughness

[BenTheJester]

Fighter is really easy too!

Feat 1 Improved toughness

all other feats

Toughness

Wow, I didn't expect so much cheese when I came here.