[4e] One dragon and eight adventurers

[Katana_Geldar]

I'll be co-DMing this weekend a party of eight, and as it's our last session of D&D we're going to round it off with a dragon. So I'm on the compendium dragon shopping and have only guesswork to find an appropriate level dragon for the party: ie, one that will give them enough of a fight to be entertaining, not a TPK and not be there all night.

The other DM decided that it would be a relatively young dragon with a rather small hoard whos parent had been killed years ago by adventurers.

I do like the Young Red Dragon, but worried Level 7 is not going to be enough.

I also would appreciate some input on tactics, most of the party are strikers.

[Draz74]

The party level might be a useful thing to mention.

[Katana_Geldar]

Oh, yeah, right, sorry.

They are level 5.

[Inyssius Tor]

Eight players versus one level +2 solo? They'll eat it for breakfast. You could probably run two dragons of that level at them.

[Katana_Geldar]

My instincts were right then, I thought I needed to think bigger.

What level would you guys suggest?

FTR, I only have Mohnster Manual though I do have DDI.

[Zemro]

Eight players versus one level +2 solo? They'll eat it for breakfast. You could probably run two dragons of that level at them.

I was just thinking the same thing.

What's the exact party make-up?

[Katana_Geldar]

Two rangers, one two-weapon melee shapeshifter and one melee/ranged half-elf
A tiefling ranged rogue
A Eladrin dragon magic sorcerer
Rather tanky Dwarf Paladin
Lightning and radiant Dwarf invoker
A rather old swarming human druid
And another guy who does not have a character yet who I am thinking of talking into playing a cleric or Bard.

[Kol Korran]

i too say go with two dragons. i'd suggest to go with a red and a blue ( i don't have MM2, so that is all i can suggest)- the red closes to the melee guys, while the blue snipes at the ranged guys.

as to why these two are together, beats me. perhaps for mutual protection? perhaps they are actually lovers? (if that is possible with dragons), perhaps perhaps perhaps...

to make it interesting, add interesting terrain. i suggest to make it a steamy hot cave, probably near a natural Geyser of some sort:
- chutes in the ceiling/ floor, with connecting tunnels (if it's in a cave) that enable the dragons to fly into them, and appear from another place. there is no "back" position.
- some of the battle field may be pools/ ponds of water. the blue dragon might direct it's lighting there, electrifying everyone in the pool.
- some areas with super heated noxious gases perhaps? or every once in a while when minor geysers "burp"?

alternetavely you could use one dragon, just upgrade it's stats a bit, and add lots of upgraded minions/ half-regulars. (kobolds?) swarms of them rushing to the battlefield, every few rounds a few more arrive (every 2d2 rounds, another 1d6 mooks appear) until the dragon dies, and then they all flee.

just my ideas.

[Katana_Geldar]

Maybe a mother and child, I think that would work. Say, a Level 9 Adult and Level 3 young dragon.

The dragon's lair is this huge cave at the end of a dungeon and, like I said earlier, there's a dead dragon in there to sort of fool the players.

[Evard]

There are rules for leveling up monsters and I would suggest you do that to both level 7 dragons, with that party it wouldn't be hard to destroy 2 level 7 dragons...

I put 4 not very optimized players at level 5 against a different solo monsters of level 7-10 and they destroyed them easily... very easily and they only had one type of each role (striker (sorcerer), leader (bard), defender (swordmage), controller (Invoker)). I done it to test the waters with these guys and to see what level of monsters I could throw at them.... Of course oddly enough the level 4 minion lasted the longest... They just couldn't hit him anytime they targeted him haha

Swordmage: *wacks the lvl 10 dragon upside the head and kills it then attacks the minion and falls on his face*
Sorcerer: *kills the second dragon finally with an at-will then attempts to attack the same minion and rolls a nat 1 pushing everybody oround*
Invoke: *swing and a miss*
Bard: *gets self almost killed by tripping on ice and slides the ret of his move action to the feat of the minion*

Minion: *Critical hits the bard*

It went on like that for about an hour before i decided to let the thing just die -_-;;;;;

[greenknight]

Maybe try one Dragon and a few minions or standard monsters? Add in a couple of Fire Bats (Bats), and some Blazing Skeletons (for the Invoker) and you should have a decent encounter.

[The New Bruceski]

Red Dragon twins and their minions. The dragons are very used to fighting with each other, and coordinate attacks doing things like having one charge in to draw melee, then the other uses their breath weapon. They're particularly in tune since with their parents dead they've only had each other to rely on.

They communicate in Draconic "twinspeak"; they're so familiar with how each other thinks that they can share details in a minimum number of words, slang, and grunts, making it difficult for others to understand. Basically when they change tactics (flank, a feint, protecting a weakened one while his breath recharges, etc) anyone who can speak Draconic could make an insight check to get the gist of what's coming.

[Duos Greanleef]

i too say go with two dragons. i'd suggest to go with a red and a blue ( i don't have MM2, so that is all i can suggest)- the red closes to the melee guys, while the blue snipes at the ranged guys.

as to why these two are together, beats me. perhaps for mutual protection? perhaps they are actually lovers? (if that is possible with dragons), perhaps perhaps perhaps...

to make it interesting, add interesting terrain. i suggest to make it a steamy hot cave, probably near a natural Geyser of some sort:
- chutes in the ceiling/ floor, with connecting tunnels (if it's in a cave) that enable the dragons to fly into them, and appear from another place. there is no "back" position.
- some of the battle field may be pools/ ponds of water. the blue dragon might direct it's lighting there, electrifying everyone in the pool.
- some areas with super heated noxious gases perhaps? or every once in a while when minor geysers "burp"?

alternetavely you could use one dragon, just upgrade it's stats a bit, and add lots of upgraded minions/ half-regulars. (kobolds?) swarms of them rushing to the battlefield, every few rounds a few more arrive (every 2d2 rounds, another 1d6 mooks appear) until the dragon dies, and then they all flee.

just my ideas.

Can I use this setting sometime?
That is pure awesomesauce!

[Killer Angel]

as to why these two are together, beats me. perhaps for mutual protection? perhaps they are actually lovers? (if that is possible with dragons), perhaps perhaps perhaps...

For such a thing, you should have a citation.

[Leon]

There are rules for leveling up monsters and I would suggest you do that to both level 7 dragons, with that party it wouldn't be hard to destroy 2 level 7 dragons...

I put 4 not very optimized players at level 5 against a different solo monsters of level 7-10 and they destroyed them easily... very easily and they only had one type of each role (striker (sorcerer), leader (bard), defender (swordmage), controller (Invoker)). I done it to test the waters with these guys and to see what level of monsters I could throw at them.... Of course oddly enough the level 4 minion lasted the longest... They just couldn't hit him anytime they targeted him haha

Swordmage: *wacks the lvl 10 dragon upside the head and kills it then attacks the minion and falls on his face*
Sorcerer: *kills the second dragon finally with an at-will then attempts to attack the same minion and rolls a nat 1 pushing everybody oround*
Invoke: *swing and a miss*
Bard: *gets self almost killed by tripping on ice and slides the ret of his move action to the feat of the minion*

Minion: *Critical hits the bard*

It went on like that for about an hour before i decided to let the thing just die -_-;;;;;

That Minion deserves a promotion

[Mando Knight]

For such a thing, you should have a citation.

Speaking of which, the party "could" take an Adult Black on...

Or maybe a Young Mithral and its Wyrmling kid sister...

[Choco]

That Minion deserves a promotion

Yes, you should not have killed it off, instead had it run away and become a recurring villain.

Back on topic, single solos even 3-4 levels above the party usually don't provide much of a challenge due to status lock, so either give them some resistance to this or just throw more weaker enemies around. I like one solo and bout 4-5 heavy damage dealers. You know the players will all gang up on the solo first, completely ignoring the threat of the other monsters in the area, so make those other monsters hit hard and while all the PC's are ganking the solo, they got free reign to whack some overconfident PC's upside the head.

[Eorran]

My experience fighting dragons (with an admittedly smaller party) was that they run out of interesting with about 200 - 300 HP left. With such a big difference in action economy, I'd suggest either extra Action Points for the dragon(s), or just flat-out give them two actions per round.

MM1 Solos tend to be big on HP and hard to hit, but lacking in powers / abilities. Again, with tons of strikers in the party, it might be less of an issue, but keep it in mind.

I'd like to see breath weapon damage upped, though that's mostly because I remember the terror-inducing breath of dragons from back in 2nd ed. (the terror was induced in the players, not the characters)

[Yakk]

Young Red Dragon is not a bad tank. Add in a feature:
Munchies:
Once per turn as a non-action, the Young Red Dragon may swallow a Kobold minion within 2 squares to make a save against any effect on the Young Red Dragon at the start of his turn.

That will remove status-lock issues. He's a MM1 solo, so more than a bit of a tank without much damage output.

Next, a Young Green Dragon.

That is a level 7 solo soldier and a level 5 solo skirmisher.

Now, I'm an evil git. The 3rd member is ... Young Mercury Dragon (level 6 Lurker).

I'm going for a L+4-L+5 encounter for a party of 8 level 5 characters. L 9 XP is 500, times 8 = 4000. L 10 XP is 600*8 = 4800.

(200+250+300)*5 = 3750 XP budget.

We'll make it on the high side of level 9, and add in 20 Kobold Minions (level 1 spear throwers).

Now, at 4250 XP, this is a ridiculously hard fight.

To soften it a bit, they will arrive in waves. That means the party will be able to take out some of them before the rest arrive.

The fight should open up with the party against the Dragon and 10 of the Minions, who are somewhat clumped.

On round 2, 10 more minions should rush in from adjacent rooms, in groups of 1-3. A roar from somewhere else in the complex should be heard. Pass a note to players who understand Draconic -- the roar says "I'm coming, my love".

On round 3, the Mercury Dragon should attack from the rear, then pull out, while at the same time the Green Dragon should appear (and not attack). The Green starts actually fighting on round 4. (The Green was the one that roared).

This should result in players going "oh crap" -- this is a fight against 3 Dragons, not the 1 they initially thought. (If players scout out the situation enough, they'll know that there are 2 dragons in there -- the Mercury Dragon is a sneaky bugger, and nobody knows about him).

When the Mercury Dragon is attacked, it disengages for a round, then comes back the next round. (this, as an aside, does make the fight easier, as the Mercury Dragon isn't always attacking)

If the Green and Red dragon are defeated, and more than half of the party is unbloodied, the Mercury Dragon will disengage.

All 3 dragons use their Breath Weapon liberally, and don't spare the Kobolds.

One of the Kobolds should be wearing a head-priests dress, but is mechanically identical to the rest of them. Just to give the players something to shoot at on round 1.

For fun, you can have a pre-battle. The players wade through a level 4 encounter of nothing but Kobold Minions -- 56 in total, with an initial 16, then an additional 8/round for the next 5 rounds -- as they fight their way into the dragon's den.

This is for flavour, really.

Afterwards, give them back their encounter powers immediately, let them spend a healing surge as a free action, and have them enter the Dragon's Den.

[Swordgleam]

I second the suggestion to have some minions. The problems with having only one or two baddies is that everyone is going to have some kind of status-inducing daily, and since they're fighting a dragon, they're all going to use them. Within two rounds your solo is slowed, dazed, deafened, immobilized, and taking ongoing 5 fire, poison and ice damage with an extra 3d8 radiant any time it tries to do anything. And then it's just a matter of the players smacking it until it dies.

You need to spread out the damage and status effects somehow if you want the dragon to be threatening for more than a couple rounds.

[Mando Knight]

Young Red Dragon is not a bad tank. Add in a feature:
Munchies:
Once per turn as a non-action, the Young Red Dragon may swallow a Kobold minion within 2 squares to make a save against any effect on the Young Red Dragon at the start of his turn.

That will remove status-lock issues. He's a MM1 solo, so more than a bit of a tank without much damage output.

Ooh. I like.

At higher levels, marks can become one of the more ridiculous effects (since a good Defender knows how to stack effects that ride off their mark), so this might be necessary later on:

I'll take you all on!: Free, Encounter
The Solo is no longer marked. Any effects that are dependent on the mark immediately end.

[Swordgleam]

I'll take you all on!: Free, Encounter
The Solo is no longer marked. Any effects that are dependent on the mark immediately end.

I'd be tempted to change that to "when first bloodied" or have it trigger again when first bloodied.

[Yakk]

Oh yes: note that I said "save against an effect": not "save against any effect that save can end".

I should have made that clear. So the Red Dragon can munch a Kobold, and shed your defenders mark on a 5+ on a d20. Any effect.

I made it a non-action, so the Red Dragon can use it against dazed and stunned effects (technically, even while unconscious) -- you can also roleplay it as a minion sacrificing their life to help the Red Dragon (or the Red Dragon sacrificing the minion to end the effect -- knocking the Kobold at the Defender, distracting the Defender, and breaking the Defender's mark). This makes the Red Dragon a tad more dangerous until the PCs clear out the minions -- by which point, the party will be fighting 3 different dragons at once.

As noted, this is an end-of-campaign fight, so I don't feel too bad about making it a tad harder than they are expected to win against. The delay of the waves after the first probably lower the fight down to a level 8.5 one, in effect.

[Mando Knight]

I'd be tempted to change that to "when first bloodied" or have it trigger again when first bloodied.

I put it as usable before it's first bloodied, as a Paladin/Champion of Order can use his mark and Paragon Path Encounter power to "shut off" any single monster in the encounter, including Solos, by dazing and weakening the target until the Paladin is no longer marking it (though not if the Paladin supersedes his own mark). If the Solo's down for half the encounter, it'll have a hard time making up for that after it's bloodied, especially if the rest of the party takes the chance to save up their status ailment powers for if/when the daze breaks.

[Asbestos]

What about tossing on the Ettin ability that lets it roll Init twice and effectively have two turns?

[Mercenary Pen]

I'd be tempted to homebrew up an immediate reaction to punish defenders when they mark you...

For example:
Thrashing Defiance; Immediate reaction, when the red dragon is marked, recharge 5,6

Close Burst 3, 2d6+5 fire damage.

Alternatively, drop the damage to 1d8+5 and increase to Close Burst 5 to guarantee the defender can't mark with impunity.

[Tiki Snakes]

I think an amusing twist would be to have, particularly a red or silver, who in exchange for being marked, get's bonus to attack the person doing the marking. Perhaps simply attack bonuses, perhaps combat advantage.

I like the image of them responding to the challenge in kind, as it were.

I suppose getting sneak-attack style damage when attacking someone who has marked them could be amusing, too. A nice twist on the lurkery '+d6's when condition is met' kind of thing.

[Katana_Geldar]

I'm going with a red dragon and the minions idea, some kobols skirmishers and a few wyrmpriests to add to the mix...which makes sense as it's in a Temple of Tiamat they are in.

Thanks for your help guys, can't wait till tomorrow for the epic fight!

[Killer Angel]

Thanks for your help guys, can't wait till tomorrow for the epic fight!

Keep us informed!

[Katana_Geldar]

Well, that was interesting...

Because my fellow DM okayed player versus player and pretty much railroaded them into attacking the other party, they spent more time attacking each other. One person attacked the dragon, but didn't roll high enough. In the end, the dragon pretty much owned the evil party, killed three and ate two of them, then let the good party get away as long as they didn't touch his hoard as with a diplomacy check, they managed to convince the dragon they were not a threat.

So I ended the adventure with the dragon flying up onto some ledge in his lair, watching the party leaving his lair, and no doubt rather sleepy after eating two adventurers.

They didn't deserve such a dragon.