Ur-contemplative?

[TheYoungKing]

Can an Ur-Priest qualify for Contemplative? Both are in Complete Divine. Ur-Priest is a divine leech, that "steals" divine spells to cast each day and gets divine resistance. Contemplative is an advanced divine spellcasting class that gives access to up to two domains and gives a bunch of weird body effects.

Now, the problem I see is that it is assumed a Contemplative has access to at least one domain when they take the class. Not necessarily true, what with the non-Cleric casters out there. But the Ur-Priest specifically mentions that they have no domain access or domain slots.

Anyone have any idea on this?

[Drend]

Can an Ur-Priest qualify for Contemplative? Both are in Complete Divine. Ur-Priest is a divine leech, that "steals" divine spells to cast each day and gets divine resistance. Contemplative is an advanced divine spellcasting class that gives access to up to two domains and gives a bunch of weird body effects.

Now, the problem I see is that it is assumed a Contemplative has access to at least one domain when they take the class. Not necessarily true, what with the non-Cleric casters out there. But the Ur-Priest specifically mentions that they have no domain access or domain slots.

Anyone have any idea on this?

Contemplative:
Knowledge Religion 13 ranks.
Ability to cast 1st level divine Spells
Special: Must have had direct contact with one's patron deity, or a direct servant of one's patron deity, or with an enlightened being embodying the highest principles of an alignment.

Ur-Priest
Alignment: Evil
Saves: Fort +3 Will +3
Bluff 6 ranks, Knowledge arcana and plains 5 ranks, Knowledge Religion and Spellcraft 8 ranks
Iron Will
Spell focus (evil)
Special: The character must have no ability to cast divine spells, or have forever forsaken that class ability.

Based on the requirements, I'd say no, an Ur-priest cannot become a Contemplative, due to the conflict between the red texts.

[Gaiyamato]

Umm.. you take Contemplative AFTER the Ur-Priest Drend. The Ur-Priest grants divine casting, Contemplative advances it.

Purely in RAW you can. You could start off as an Ur-Priest then move into the Contemplative, but you would need to meet that fluff requirement.

or with an enlightened being embodying the highest principles of an alignment.

Be Chaotic Evil and stealing divine energy - all you would need to do is meet a powerful Demon and survive.. so just summon one, say hi then start your second prestige class. lol.
The alternative is to be Lawful Evil and summon a Devil.
Which is easier and has the potential to allow you to sell your soul for some bonus feats.
Better yet swear allegiance to one of the Lawful Elder Evils (in the book of the same name) and then just meet a Devil. That's another bonus feat. lol.

[TheYoungKing]

Did you read ur-Priest though? They get divine spellcasting, they just can't have any going in.

Spells per Day: An ur-priest gains the ability to cast a number of divine spells.

I'm talking about going from ur-Priest to Contemplative, not the other way around. (Also, I think ur-priest might be the only PrC to disqualify itself during class progression)

[Rainbownaga]

Contemplative:
Knowledge Religion 13 ranks.
Ability to cast 1st level divine Spells
Special: Must have had direct contact with one's patron deity, or a direct servant of one's patron deity, or with an enlightened being embodying the highest principles of an alignment.

I think you highlighted the wrong spot. Ur priests cast divine spells, they're just a bit like Schrodinger's Dragon disciple as far as class prerequisites go.

The problem is that an Ur priest hates the gods, all gods, and since he has no patron deity, that only leaves the 'embodiment of the highest principles of the alignment', which is a stretch because that is obviously supposed to refer to alignment-clerics.

(Sorry for the massive run-on sentence)

[TheYoungKing]

Purely in RAW you can. You could start off as an Ur-Priest then move into the Contemplative, but you would need to meet that fluff requirement. Being Chaotic Evil and stealing divine energy though all you would need to do is meet a powerful Demon and survive.. so just summon one, say hi then start your second prestige class. lol.

Would they get the bonus domains/granted powers as well?

Oh, and the character I have in mind meets that requirement by the "fluff" for ur-Priest- they can worship a dead god or one which lost all their power.

[Gaiyamato]

Would they get the bonus domains/granted powers as well?

Oh, and the character I have in mind meets that requirement by the "fluff" for ur-Priest- they can worship a dead god or one which lost all their power.

You don't even need to do that, read my edit above.

But yes. You would get the Domain power and the spells added to your list.
You do not get a bonus Domain spell slot though.

You could still take the Spontaneous Domain feat and be able to spontaneously cast your Domain spells however.

[Drend]

Umm.. you take Contemplative AFTER the Ur-Priest Drend. The Ur-Priest grants divine casting, Contemplative advances it.

Purely in RAW you can. You could start off as an Ur-Priest then move into the Contemplative, but you would need to meet that fluff requirement. Being Chaotic Evil and stealing divine energy though all you would need to do is meet a powerful Demon and survive.. so just summon one, say hi then start your second prestige class. lol.

I have to disagree. It doesn't matter what order you take it in, the whole "forever forsaking the ability to cast Divine Spells" is kind of a killer. Not to mention that contemplatives derive spells in a more "traditional" sense, whereas an Ur-Priest is really just a divine spell thief. Contemplative spell casting requires prayer, Ur-Priests don't pray. I just see too much conflict between the two, and don't see RAW supporting it. The requirements I see in the RAW (reading them now to double check, as well as working with cross referencing classes) says NO! to the Ur-Priest ever taking another divine spellcasting class without losing the ability to cast his stolen spells.

[TheYoungKing]

I don't see prayer being referenced in the Contemplative advancement.

And ur-Priest doesn't have the usual "ex" segments for classes you can retroactively disqualify yourself for.

[Drend]

I don't see prayer being referenced in the Contemplative advancement.

And ur-Priest doesn't have the usual "ex" segments for classes you can retroactively disqualify yourself for.

There is more to the class than the stat block.
"Adaptation: Central to this prestige class is the notion of gaining power through meditation or prayer."

The Ur-Priest only steal spells, and cannot pray for spells.
"However, a small number of them have learned to tap into divine power and use it for their own needs without praying to or worshiping a deity." "An Ur-Priest has access to any spell on the list, and prepares those spells as a cleric, except that he does not pray for spells, he just takes them."

[magic9mushroom]

Considered, used, and abused.

EDIT: Yes, having another divine spellcasting class and Ur-Priest at the same time is forbidden. But this doesn't stop you using Ur-Priest's own casting to qualify for Contemplative.

[Gaiyamato]

Yeah Drend dude your wrong.
Contemplative does not grant divine casting at all, it will only advance the Ur-Priest casting.
Under your reading Ur-Priest cancels itself out. lol.

Maybe you are thinking about a different prestige class other than Contemplative dude?
Or perhaps you are reading from an incomplete or incorrect online reosurce.

Given that your wording for the Contemplative special is slightly different than that presented in Complete Divine I'd say the latter.

Magic9mushroom is correct.. and that build is obscene M9M dude.

[magic9mushroom]

.. and that build is obscene M9M dude.

Lol. I know. Did you check the FAQ section?

[Jack_Simth]

I'm talking about going from ur-Priest to Contemplative, not the other way around. (Also, I think ur-priest might be the only PrC to disqualify itself during class progression)

Nah, Dragon Disciple does that too (at 10th).

[Optimystik]

I have to disagree. It doesn't matter what order you take it in, the whole "forever forsaking the ability to cast Divine Spells" is kind of a killer.

If you disallow Ur-Priest based on that, how does an Ur-Priest cast any spells at all at your table?

Also, Contemplative is not "a divine spellcasting class" because it doesn't get the ability to cast divine spells. It can only advance the casting of an existing class.

[magic9mushroom]

If you disallow Ur-Priest based on that, how does an Ur-Priest cast any spells at all at your table?

Ur-Priest is kinda dodgy like that, isn't it? Its primary class feature contradicts the entrance requirements.

But RAI and RAMS are blindingly obvious on the matter.

[Godskook]

If you disallow Ur-Priest based on that, how does an Ur-Priest cast any spells at all at your table?

Better question: Does she allow Ur-Priest to qualify for any divine spell-casting class? Y'know, like Mystic Theurge, Sacred Fist, or Entropomancer.

[TheYoungKing]

Nah, Dragon Disciple does that too (at 10th).

At the capstone, you'll note. An ur-priest does so at first level. I hadn't realized that, oddly enough. Kind of a fun bit of trivia.

And re-reading Contemplative, any divine spellcasting class should be able to qualify. Druid, Archivist, Favored Soul, even Paladin......

@m9m: RAMS?

[magic9mushroom]

At the capstone, you'll note. An ur-priest does so at first level. I hadn't realized that, oddly enough. Kind of a fun bit of trivia.

And re-reading Contemplative, any divine spellcasting class should be able to qualify. Druid, Archivist, Favored Soul, even Paladin......

@m9m: RAMS?

Rules as Make Sense. And yes, lots of things can get into Contemplative.

[TheYoungKing]

It just seems written for clerics and so I just sort of assumed it was for Clerics.

Only delved into Complete Divine for my Cleric player.... and decided I wanted an ur-Priest/Contemplative as a BBEG.

EDIT: And my point was that prayer for spells is only mentioned once in the fluff adaptability section. (and even that offers the less sectarian split of meditation)

Favored Souls don't have to pray. Either do Druids. And ANYONE can meditate.

[Optimystik]

And re-reading Contemplative, any divine spellcasting class should be able to qualify. Druid, Archivist, Favored Soul, even Paladin......

They should be, but a Druid/Ranger might have issues with the fluff requirement.

EDIT: And my point was that prayer for spells is only mentioned once in the fluff adaptability section. (and even that offers the less sectarian split of meditation)

Favored Souls don't have to pray. Either do Druids. And ANYONE can meditate.

What's more is the Adaptation section for Contemplative, suggesting it is a good PrC for a divine class with no deity at all. That fits Ur-Priest to a tee.

However, Ur-Priest is generally better with a Theurge-type class.

[magic9mushroom]

However, Ur-Priest is generally better with a Theurge-type class.

Unless you want a Domain for something.

Like in that monstrosity I linked.

[TheYoungKing]

Not overly concerned with optimization, as he is already going to have a level advantage over the PCs.

[Jack_Simth]

However, Ur-Priest is generally better with a Theurge-type class.

Yeah. However, as a BBEG, it matters much, much less, as a BBEG doesn't need to worry nearly as much about endurance as players do ... and limited spells per day is one of the biggest limiting factors of the Ur-Priest.