[3.5] Surprise Rounds

[Myou]

I'm unclear about when you should and shouldn't get a surprise round - certainly if your foes are unaware of you, you get one, but what if you're in the middle of talking and suddenly decide to attack? Your foes don't even know you're an enemy, so do you get a surprise round that way?
And lastly, what if you're in a mexican standoff or similar situation, where no-one is making any moves, if you decide to break that stalemate you logically ought to go first, but if you just roll initiative you might lose, even end up going last.

[Human Paragon 3]

In case #1, you are in the middle of conversation and decide to sucker punch somebody, I would say you do get a surprise round, since they "aren't aware of their enemy."

In the mexican stand off situation, everybody is aware of their enemy, so no surprise round. What is the purpose of a mexican stand off if not to test the will and reflexes of the participants. If just deciding to break the stand off wins initiative, there's no insentive NOT to break the stand off. They can sense that you're about to attack and try to beat you on the draw. That simple. Like when the bad guy draws his gun first, but the good guy is faster and wins the showdown.

[Myou]

In case #1, you are in the middle of conversation and decide to sucker punch somebody, I would say you do get a surprise round, since they "aren't aware of their enemy."

In the mexican stand off situation, everybody is aware of their enemy, so no surprise round. What is the purpose of a mexican stand off if not to test the will and reflexes of the participants. If just deciding to break the stand off wins initiative, there's no insentive NOT to break the stand off. They can sense that you're about to attack and try to beat you on the draw. That simple. Like when the bad guy draws his gun first, but the good guy is faster and wins the showdown.

That makes a lot of sense, yeah. A standoff question came up recently and I wasn't sure which way to rule on it, but I decided to go for initiative rolls. I suppose the person to break the standoff might be slow to actually act - he could begin his action first, sparking the fight, but others might make their moves quicker.

[RebelRogue]

In case #1, you are in the middle of conversation and decide to sucker punch somebody, I would say you do get a surprise round, since they "aren't aware of their enemy."

An opposed Bluff vs. Sense Motive roll might be appropriate in order to get the surprise round, though.

[Myou]

An opposed Bluff vs. Sense Motive roll might be appropriate in order to get the surprise round, though.

If you're planning it, yeah. But if you just decide 'screw it, I shoot the king', then you're not bluffing ayone, which was more what I was thinking of.

[KillianHawkeye]

If you're planning it, yeah. But if you just decide 'screw it, I shoot the king', then you're not bluffing ayone, which was more what I was thinking of.

That's still resolved with Initiative checks. The moment you turn hostile and reach for your weapons, the enemy will notice and get a chance to react at the same time. If you really want a surprise round, you'll have to use Bluff to cause a distraction, or Sleight of Hand to stealthily draw your weapon, or etc. You'll never just get one automatically.

[Human Paragon 3]

Unless you really did sucker punch them, i.e. improved unarmed strike.

I might rule quick draw is fast enough to draw a weapon and attack and gain a surprise round in a social situation, too, though that's not RAW.

A soulknife with the free draw ability, etc. I'd probably allow without initiative check. A psion manifesting a purely mental attack power.

[Riffington]

An opposed Bluff vs. Sense Motive roll might be appropriate in order to get the surprise round, though.

Yes, but with circumstance modifiers.
"Let's parlay" is not nearly as effective as "bet you didn't see that one coming, mom."

[Mastikator]

That's still resolved with Initiative checks. The moment you turn hostile and reach for your weapons, the enemy will notice and get a chance to react at the same time. If you really want a surprise round, you'll have to use Bluff to cause a distraction, or Sleight of Hand to stealthily draw your weapon, or etc. You'll never just get one automatically.

Quickdraw is your friend

Edit- Ok, a king would probably have bodyguards with readied actions for just this, but anyone else :P

[Rainbownaga]

From a realistic point of view, whoever draws first goes first. The reaction time for something that you're expecting to happen is generally around 300ms (.3s) which doesn't sound like much, but it's huge.

I know it doesn't make sense, but giving whoever goes first the suprise action makes a fair amount of sense- they get to take a single standard action first, but they risk losing initiative and getting a full-action response. In most conversations this makes sense (in my opinion).

The other way to do a mexican standoff is to use combat rules. Each character readies a standard action against another. The first to act actually goes after the character threatening them, but they gain the benifit of a full action instead of a partial one.

I would rule that if the situation was not threatening a suckerpunch would be a suprise round action, (drawing a sword would take up the length of the 'suprise round' unless they had quick draw). Threatening situations should be conducted as an encounter with each side having the option to delay or ready actions while they are talking.