Another way for damage

[Cilvyn]

Hello everyone,

I'm trying to make another combat system. This sytem will be played in a high realistic historical setting.

Attacks and defences

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Whenever you want to hit an enemy you make an attack roll. The formula below shows you how to get to your total attack bonus. You roll a d20 and add your bonus to the outcome of the roll.

Half level + Strength +proficiency+ bonuses = Total Attack bonus

Example:
Garret has is level 8 so has a bonus of +4. His strength modifier is +2. He is proficient with the longsword with which he makes the attack. This gives him another +2 bonus. His total attack bonus is now 1d10+8

When an opponent tries to hit you, you can make a defense dice roll. Your attacker only makes a succesfull hit when his attack roll is a higher number than your defense roll. The formula below shows you how to get to you total defense bonus.

Half Level + Dexterity + shield bonus + bonuses = Total Defence Bonus

Example:
Wayne wants to block Gerrets attack. His level is 6 and therefore has a bonus of 3. His dexterity modifier is 4. Wayne carries a bow and has no shield in his hands. His total defense bonus is now 1d10+7

Applying Damage

Here is the problem. I don't know how to apply damage. The normal way would be weapon+strenght. But, now it comes, as you've seen armor doen't apply to your defence. instead it gives you damage reduction.
(Some examples: leather :1 chainmail:4 full plate: 7,+3 defence. yes some heavy armor do give you a small defence bonus)
So if you would do the normal method you would hardly do any damag at all against a warrior in full plate (1d6+4 = an avarage of 7,5 max=10. so only 50% of the time you deal damage this is ok. But then against a leaher wearing enemy you would deal 1d6+4 damage then you would deal so much more damage. but that is normal since the DR difference is 7 so you wil always receive more damage. This should be balanced with an higer amount of damage (so the defender and striker role are born)

The idea is that players have very low HP. i don't know howmuch yet but you should die in about 4 of 5 good hits.
Also specials like sneak attack will be cut. because extra damage is to unbalanced for the game i think.

My question is: is there a way to make this system balanced? Is everything i want to cut and add not overpowered or making characters to weak?

Another idea was to cut standart weapon damage and let the damage dealt be decided by how big the difference is between the attacking and defending diceroll.

I hope you can help me

[Lord Vukodlak]

If your going for realistic then armor and AC is more realistic then damage reduction. Just the AC might be different vs different types of damage. A flexible chain shirt may be great against a slashing weapon but horrible vs a bludgeon. Armor was worn with the intention of nearly negating the attack more then softening the blow

As others have said NO amount of strength is going to get a dagger through a suit of fullplate. You aim for the gaps.

The truth is a realistic armor would have both, a chain shirt wouldn't block a hammer strike very well but it would at least absorb some of the impact.

[Scow2]

As others have said NO amount of strength is going to get a dagger through a suit of fullplate.

I beg to differ... but it would require dealing enough raw damage to overcome the armor's Hardness...

[Lord Vukodlak]

I beg to differ... but it would require dealing enough raw damage to overcome the armor's Hardness...

He's trying to it more realistically, and realistically a dagger would never penetrate a suit of platemail armor. The dagger would snap first.

Going strictly by D&D rules it would also never penetrate as it be a sunder attempt and you can't sunder worn armor.

This is why D&D uses armor for avoiding attacks rather then absorbing damage.

[Spiryt]

If you mounted a dagger on some massive, quick moving hydraulic arm, it certainly could penetrate some plate.

It won't really always snap too.

And generally speaking about "dagger" and "platemail armor" is like talking about "car". So many designs, weights, that one should generally speak more concretely

I would agree that most things that were used as a daggers in medieval, cannot be expected to puncture plate defenses of average thickness with great success.

"Platemail" is also pleonasm AFIKN, and is generally D&D-sque word. "Plate armor" is just alright, and "mail" is this.

[Lord Vukodlak]

My point still remains armor as avoiding damage is more realistic then simply as DR.

[Spiryt]

I generally agree. I don't like armor as DR, beacuse in few systems that uses it, it generally behaves very poorly. Maybe if used well it works better - I don't know.

Although generally, for "realistic" purposes, some more complete suits of mail, plate, linen/whatever could also use some minor DR.

[Scow2]

I do like how the SRD has variants that allow armor to absorb/convert damage, because at some point armor does diminish otherwise-lethal blows, or, conversely, it doesn't protect against blows it should, and some damage seeps through.

And I continue to disagree with your assessment of the dagger's effect against platemail. Since it's blow is concentrated against a tiny spot of 3-5 mm of metal, enough force in a straight jab could have it punch through. Of course, it also has to penetrate the padding, so I could see Plate Armor granting something like DR/12 (10 for hardness of Steel, 2 for Hardness of the Padding) and 100% Fortification if it successfully defends agaisnt a piercing blow. Heavy armor such as plate and half-plate should give DR/2 against piercing and slashing weapons that aren't blocked by AC, because even the chinks in the armor are well-padded.

Slashing damage doesn't have the penetration ability of a piercing weapon such as a pick or a dagger attached to the end of a Chuck Norris Roundhouse Kick^TM

On the subject of attack bonuses, you should just use the Base Attack Bonuses already granted... a Fighter knows how to strike and parry better than a Wizard of the same level.

Also, weapon damage needs to be buffed considerably, and Bows should get a damage bonus over long ranges, since Gravity helps with penetration.

Critical threat ability should be made more dependant on weapon skill, such as by beating AC by 10+(threat range-20).

-OR-

You can let WotC do the work for you and just institute Unearthed Arcana's "Armor as Damage Reduction", "Armor Damage Conversion", and rolling AC variants, which should achieve the goal you are looking for.

[Spiryt]

And I continue to disagree with your assessment of the dagger's effect against platemail. Since it's blow is concentrated against a tiny spot of 3-5 mm of metal, enough force in a straight jab could have it punch through. Of course.

Generally, nah.

Reenactors, historians, and generally interested people discuss this armor things to death, but really almost nobody argues that dagger(like) weapons could be used to anyhow reliably puncture solid steel defences.

Manuals show us that one should generally aim for joints with poleaxe, let alone a dagger.

Here a test that shows that's hard to penetrate coat of plates with heavy lance like object, bashed into laying, unmoving target in laboratory. Dagger is really rather out.

Unless you have some serious tests that people haven't seen yet.

Also, weapon damage needs to be buffed considerably,

Nah, armors AC should be buffed, beacuse it's rather not enough for "Realistic" gameplay.

Weapon damage is already sufficiently high with proper use (feats etc.)

Of course there's a lot of flaws in this (crossbows), but 3.5, let's face it, will suck as "realistic" stuff without major overdoing.

and Bows should get a damage bonus over long ranges, since Gravity helps with penetration.

No. Arrow has certain velocity when it leaves the bow. It only can, naturally lose it later. Over great distance, it will gain it again falling from the arch, but obviously, it won't have greater velocity than in the beginning.

Some speculate that well designed, heavy arrows from heavy bows can retain have as much as 70% of starting velocity if their arch of flight ends at ~200 meters, but noone really tested it well.

You may just want to go with Unearthed Arcana's "Armor as Damage Reduction" and rolling AC variants, which should achieve the goal you are looking for.

Most people say it's rather bad variant. Haven't tried myself. But it looks like plate with 4 AC and 4 DR doesn't do anything well. Any more damaging attack will do big damage, way too many attacks will hit without problem.

[Cilvyn]

Thanx for the reactions for so far.

I think you make a point when you say armor should still function as AC and not as DR. I also discussed with a friend in real life and he shares that statement too.

But as you also have mentioned. some kind of damage is better against plate then leather. so i was thinking about some new rules.


The % is the damage reduction it provides
The armour gives the normal bonus to AC as in the normal DnD

- I dont know how to balance piercing damage. Though just a few weapons deal this kind of damage so maybe it is OK this way.
- I don't know what bludeoning damage should be like.

How did i balance the great bonusses of medium and heavy armour.
- Heavy armor costs A LOT more than leather armor. The first few levels you can't even affort buying one.
- You get a penalty on attack bonus. the armour is heavy to wear and it makes it more difficult to dilliver optimal attacks
- Heavy armour will make you faster fitugued than light armour.

I want to work with fatigue-points. This means you can fight with maximum bonusses for a given amount of turns. after those rounds you get a penalty which increases while you fight longer. ofcourse endurance will have a major role in this.

Maybe you guys have more ideas and tips. i really hope so.

Cil

[Lord Vukodlak]

More realism would certainly mean adding in armor penetration for stuff like crossbows or a longbow and the painfully slow reload on the crossbow would make it useless to PC's.

Most people fail to understand that made the crossbow scary was not that it was this efficient killing machine. Its the crossbow was an easy killing machine. If I'm a farmer and a hostile knight with a decade of training is charging at me with intent to kill. There is no way I could defend myself with any bludgeon, blade or bow. I simply don't have the training, my only hope is to run for cover.

But I could pull out a crossbow kill him with relative ease at long range. The crossbow was considered a weapon of terror for that reason. It made killing easy. A highly trained longbow men could fire ten arrows a minute. But that required years of practice and training and good upper body strength.

Your DR vs different damage types would actually depend on the style of the armor rather then the weight class.

A Chain shirt would be good against slashing weapons but very poor vs bludgeoning. You'd probably halve the AC vs a bludgeoning weapon and it absorb little if any damage.

[Spiryt]

If I really wanted to try somehow "high realistic" (touuuuuugh job) armor in 3.5, I would try something like that:

{table=head]"Material | Coverage (or whatever) Light | Medium | Heavy
Quilted | light | medium | -------
Layered cloth | light |medium | -------
Mail | light | medium | heavy
Full Plate| light (?) | medium | heavy
Coat of plates | light | medium | -------
Scale | ------- | medium | heavy
Lammellar | ------- | medium | ----- (?)
[/table]

Generally, you take a material of armor, choose amount of coverage (how substantial and complete is an armor) to determine how well armor protects, and how much it impairs movement. Some armor generally cannot have certain coverage, although accurate ideas would require someone way less lame at this than me.

Anyway, for example plate scale generally won't be light, while plate potentially can be. Quilted defenses will generally get to bulky and restrictive to provide real "heavy" status. But maybe sometimes.

So one can take material and coverage, to determine final armor.

For example one takes fairly light mail than covers from a bit below shoulders to a bit below waist. It's "light" mail, that have certain stats.

At the same time mail that covers from palms to knees, with the head, is generally medium, while mail with double layers here, and there, more substantial padding, smaller rings, or something can be "heavy".

Stats would depend on it.

[Cilvyn]

Plate (good against slashing poor against piersing avarage against bludgeoning)

Scale (good against piercing rest ??)

Chain ( avarage gainst bludgeoning poor against piercing shashing ??)

Hide (poor against all)

Leather (poor against all)

so i should adjust the AC of the armors for the different kinds of damage.
What should the AC be of the armours? or can i make it more simple by only applying DR? what do you say?

EDIT: i get your point. the only thing is it will make the armour system a bit to complecated i think. and how should the different armours react to all the types of damage.. it will give so many tables :P

[Scow2]

More realism would certainly mean adding in armor penetration for stuff like crossbows or a longbow and the painfully slow reload on the crossbow would make it useless to PC's.

Most people fail to understand that made the crossbow scary was not that it was this efficient killing machine. Its the crossbow was an easy killing machine. If I'm a farmer and a hostile knight with a decade of training is charging at me with intent to kill. There is no way I could defend myself with any bludgeon, blade or bow. I simply don't have the training, my only hope is to run for cover.

But I could pull out a crossbow kill him with relative ease at long range. The crossbow was considered a weapon of terror for that reason. It made killing easy. A highly trained longbow men could fire ten arrows a minute. But that required years of practice and training and good upper body strength.

Your DR vs different damage types would actually depend on the style of the armor rather then the weight class.

A Chain shirt would be good against slashing weapons but very poor vs bludgeoning. You'd probably halve the AC vs a bludgeoning weapon and it absorb little if any damage.

10 arrows a minute means the highest Rate of Fire any archer should achieve is 1/round, not the 10+/round seen at higher levels.

Crossbows definately need buffed damage and improved critical striking capability.

I'd think a chain shirt would be good against bludgeon and slashing both because the flexibility pads the user. The rigid construction of plate armors are less effective against bludgeon because the entire section of armor tries to move with the blow without regard for how the structures under it (The body) care about the movement. And, if it dents the armor (It's not extraordinarily thick plating), the armor stays immobilizing for the wearer.

And as far as the Dagger w/ sufficient strength puncturing a suit of fullplate, I was imagining the Dagger in the hands of a Giant or human with similar strength. (A +10 STR mod is required to penetrate steel plating.)

Leather and hide would be excellent against Bludgeoning damage.

And don't reduce damage by a %... it's better to use Damage Reduction. At some point with damage, it doesn't matter what type of damage it's dealing... it's all raw physical pain and penetration. Or maybe STR modifier Damage could be considered Piercing, Slashing, AND Bludgeon at once.

[Cilvyn]

another change i make is a maximum of 1 (maybe 2?) attacks per round. like the 4.0 version. just for the record.

[Scow2]

I prefer the multiple attacks from a high BaB... in reality, I think the strongest anyone has ever become is level 6 or 8 as far as level equivalents are concerned. (In 1e, 8 HD was the max any character could have for that reason.)

That is only 1 or 2 melee attacks/round. Once you go beyond Level 8, you venture into Charles Atlas Superpowers mode.

Have you seen the E6 game variant?

[Spiryt]

Generally:

Plate - good against all. Bludgeoning generally are best against it.

Scale - Similar to plate. Possibly better against missiles (highly disscusable)
Generaly worse than plate in general

Lammellar - Similar to scale for game uses

Coat of plates - As above

Mail - good against pierc. & slash. Bludgeon probably
somehow weak spot

And similary. Generally all mostly slashing weapons ought to be highly poor against any form of armor. At most they will do some damage that's somehow bludgeoning in nature.

Leather and hide would be excellent against Bludgeoning damage.

Well, aside from the fact that such armors that were mainly from leather or hide are big no in attempt at "highly realistic" system, why should something like that be particularly effective against bludgeoning force?

[Lord Vukodlak]

Because leather and hide armor is stiff and ridged, not flexible like modern leather clothing.

[Spiryt]

Because leather and hide armor is stiff and ridged, not flexible like modern leather clothing.

I would like to ask:

How do you know that ? We had a thread about it some time ago, and generally consensus was that very little is known about purely "leather" armor. For sure, it wasn't really used in Europe.

The thread

And generally somehow stiffened leather armor would be obviously better than regular clothing - but there's no indication that it would be particularly good.

[Cilvyn]

So many things I should think about when making the system.. pff

ok. I think the constructing your own armor by choosing materials and stuff is great and high realistic. Though i think this creates to many options and one would lose himself in surging the right table for his armor and the different kind of damages and stuff. So i prefer the normal armor types.

The armours with different specialties against the damage types is somthing i realy like. But (I watched the movies on yotube about how good armor is against weapons) then i think plate armour should absorb as much armor as possible (Except piercing). but will penalize the wearer when struck with bludgeoning damage when he is hit again and again. until the wearer falls phrone or somthing.

What do you think about that? The full plate then is very good but also risky to wear.

[lesser_minion]

I haven't seen anything made of leather (hardened or not) that would survive a credible attempt to cause harm to someone.

Padded armour - made of lots and lots of layers of silk or canvas - would offer much better protection.

Hide is a bit more tolerable, because you could always argue that it's the pelt or carapace of some exotic creature that doesn't exist in the real world. However, leather is useful only for fashion and remaining dry, really.

[Spiryt]

Generally, it's probably sensible idea, but it shouldn't be anything severe.

If somebody is being struck so hard that his plate deforms, his mobility will suffer, but someone in armor that doesn't absorb trauma in such way will be probably disabled.

However, leather is useful only for fashion and remaining dry, really.

Quite many Asian tribes would probably disagree.

Leather can be somehow applied to form resilient bits. I don't know (and even specialists are not sure) how it was historically done.

The trick is obviously, that metals like steel or bronze are way better material to form a lammellar or scale.

When people didn't have access to such metals from whatever reason, they tried something else. Leather in some cases.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Sorry but no, Fullplate is made of stiff metal and has padding it be VERY good against bludgeoning and absorbing the impact. Anyone hit really hard with a bludgeoning weapon may be knocked over the difference with plate mail is your less likely to be dead from the trauma.

All armors are not created equal some where much more protective then others. And a suit of Full Plate Mail armor was as protective as it got.

Piercing weapons would work well because their accurate and better able get at the gaps in a suit of armor where its only chain links.

[Cilvyn]

so you sugest that only when struck hard the plate armor should imobilizethe wearer a bit.

Can someone come up with some numbers so we can discuss that? i'm very bad in overwiewing numbers and the like that is why i ask someone to do it. I hope one of you can do that.

The armor types i want to use are:
Padded
leather
studded leather

scale mail
chain mail
breast plate

splint mail
half plate
full plate

EDIT: A table with an overwiew with the damage types against the armour types.

[Krazddndfreek]

Quick-n-dirty

[Jack of Spades]

Also specials like sneak attack will be cut. because extra damage is to unbalanced for the game i think.

Then what fun is it to be a rogue?

No. Arrow has certain velocity when it leaves the bow. It only can, naturally lose it later. Over great distance, it will gain it again falling from the arch, but obviously, it won't have greater velocity than in the beginning.

Well, if the archer chose to shoot at an angle greater than ~60 degrees, then the arrow would actually not lose any velocity, as physics say that if the starting and ending elevation are the same, then gravity will accelerate the arrow to very nearly the same speed at which it was shot. In this case, the penetration bonus would actually make sense, assuming the archer has open air in which to shoot the arc.

I haven't seen anything made of leather (hardened or not) that would survive a credible attempt to cause harm to someone.

Excuse my presumption, but I'm going to guess that you are basing this off of today's leather, which is generally made for style more than protection. Legitimate leather armoring would not only be supplemented by several layers of thick silk/cloth, but would also be hardened to the point where it can protect against blows. Mongols and Samurai, two of the more formidable fighting forces in history, both used leather armor.

[Lord Vukodlak]

so you suggest that only when struck hard the plate armor should imobilizethe wearer a bit.

No I suggest that ANYONE struck really hard might be knocked over, platemail would not only help keep the person from being dead but absorb some of the impact making it more difficult.

Well, if the archer chose to shoot at an angle greater than ~60 degrees, then the arrow would actually not lose any velocity, as physics say that if the starting and ending elevation are the same, then gravity will accelerate the arrow to very nearly the same speed at which it was shot. In this case, the penetration bonus would actually make sense, assuming the archer has open air in which to shoot the arc.

Which is why firing a gun into the air can kill, but bullets dropped of a building can not.

[Spiryt]

Well, if the archer chose to shoot at an angle greater than ~60 degrees, then the arrow would actually not lose any velocity, as physics say that if the starting and ending elevation are the same, then gravity will accelerate the arrow to very nearly the same speed at which it was shot. In this case, the penetration bonus would actually make sense, assuming the archer has open air in which to shoot the arc.

It could possibly achieve the close to the same velocity in vacuum.

It's still wouldn't achieve the velocity from point "0", as you stated yourself.

So I can't see why bonus to penetration should be valid.

If archer shoot from some solid elevation, then yes, in some cases certainly arrow can reach greater velocity at some point of flight.

Not in most "normal" cases though.

[Jack of Spades]

It could possibly achieve the same velocity in vacuum.
It's still wouldn't achieve the velocity from point "0", as you stated yourself.

So I can't see why bonus to penetration should be valid.

Because regular penetration assumes that the arrow is being shot straight-ish, and suffering the deceleration caused by air resistance alone. Shooting with a steep arc would create a period of acceleration, which would cause the arrow to gain enough speed to come to very nearly the velocity of a point blank hit.

[Krazddndfreek]

It's not really enough to change the rules for it though. Using dexterity as a bonus and weapon proficiency assumes these things readily.