[3.5] Obtaining a familiar problem/question

[danzibr]

Hello all,

So I'm making a Goliath Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Unseen Seer 2, so my caster level will be 5. I plan on taking the Planar Familiar feat and getting a Lantern Archon when my caster level is 7.

So here is my problem/question: is there some feat which increases caster level for determining familiar stuff? I read a thread as to whether Practiced Spellcaster will help or not, but there didn't seem to be a real decision. And I know there's a feat like this for animal companions (kind of). Basically I want to get my Lantern Archon sooner.

And another question: if I take Planar Familiar before my caster level is 7 can I just wait to get my familiar until I hit caster level 7?

Also, if we were to play using LA buyoff rules, how would that work starting at level 7?

Thanks.

Dan

[Darklord Xavez]

It's not caster level, is arcane spellcaster level.
-Xavez

[Vizzerdrix]

It's not caster level, is arcane spellcaster level. A wizard3/sorcerer4 doesn't get familiars as seventh level, he gets them as 4th level.
-Xavez

Are you sure?

[Last Laugh]

You could always drop your familiar for an alternate class feature and get the obtain familiar feat, This lets you stack your levels in all arcane caster levels to determine familiar properties.

(giving you the familiar of a 5th level wizard instead of the familiar of a 3rd level wizard)

[Godskook]

It's not caster level, is arcane spellcaster level. A wizard3/sorcerer4 doesn't get familiars as seventh level, he gets them as 4th level.
-Xavez

This is patently wrong, and has never worked that way. Re-read the PHB, page 52, familiar sidebar, to see that all familiar granting classes have always stacked.

@OP, I can't find planar familiar, what book is it from? Also, note that Unseen Seer is not a 'familiar granting class', but it is one that 'allows you to cast arcane spells', so subbing out your familiar class feature for a nice ACF, and then re-getting it through the feat Obtain familiar may be worthwhile to you.

And Edit:

However, getting the Lantern Archon does not key to your 'level' in the same way standard familiar abilities do. It keys off your 'arcane spellcaster level'. You can get one by using practiced spellcaster, since that improves your 'arcane spellcaster level', as soon as you reach 7 HD.

[danzibr]

You could always drop your familiar for an alternate class feature and get the obtain familiar feat, This lets you stack your levels in all arcane caster levels to determine familiar properties.

(giving you the familiar of a 5th level wizard instead of the familiar of a 3rd level wizard)

Whoa... yeah, that's interesting. "For the purpose of determining familiar abilities that depend on your arcane caster class level, your levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells stack."
And I intended to get Abrupt Jaunt so that works well. So by reading the Obtain Familiar text it still looks like my ECL will be 9 (unless LA buyoff works out) before I can get my Lantern Archon.

[danzibr]

This is patently wrong, and has never worked that way. Re-read the PHB, page 52, familiar sidebar, to see that all familiar granting classes have always stacked.

@OP, I can't find planar familiar, what book is it from? Also, note that Unseen Seer is not a 'familiar granting class', but it is one that 'allows you to cast arcane spells', so subbing out your familiar class feature for a nice ACF, and then re-getting it through the feat Obtain familiar may be worthwhile to you.

Sorry about double posting. It's from Planar Handbook.

To be more explicit, I intended to do something like:
Level 1 (ECL 2): Brutal Throw
Level 3 (ECL 4): Obtain Familiar
Level 6 (ECL 7): Planar Familiar

And I was hoping to get my Planar Familiar next level... hopefully.

[Godskook]

Sorry about double posting. It's from Planar Handbook.

To be more explicit, I intended to do something like:
Level 1 (ECL 2): Brutal Throw
Level 3 (ECL 4): Obtain Familiar
Level 6 (ECL 7): Planar Familiar

And I was hoping to get my Planar Familiar next level... hopefully.

Due to a lack of feat slots, I see no way of doing it, unless your DM allows flaws, which a lot do.

[Darklord Xavez]

This is patently wrong, and has never worked that way. Re-read the PHB, page 52, familiar sidebar, to see that all familiar granting classes have always stacked.

@OP, I can't find planar familiar, what book is it from? Also, note that Unseen Seer is not a 'familiar granting class', but it is one that 'allows you to cast arcane spells', so subbing out your familiar class feature for a nice ACF, and then re-getting it through the feat Obtain familiar may be worthwhile to you.

And Edit:

However, getting the Lantern Archon does not key to your 'level' in the same way standard familiar abilities do. It keys off your 'arcane spellcaster level'. You can get one by using practiced spellcaster, since that improves your 'arcane spellcaster level', as soon as you reach 7 HD.

Quote:
Are you sure?

Sorry. Changed my post.
-Xavez

[danzibr]

Due to a lack of feat slots, I see no way of doing it, unless your DM allows flaws, which a lot do.

Flaws are fine. Or giving up Brutal Throw.

[Godskook]

It's not caster level, is arcane spellcaster level.
-Xavez

Which, in context, isn't a relevant distinction. A Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Daggerspell Mage 1, with practiced spellcaster, has an "Arcane Spellcaster Level" of 7, not 5.

Flaws are fine. Or giving up Brutal Throw.

Vulnerable is a good flaw for you, not knowing your stats. If you're comfortable with the save-hit, one of those might be useful too.

[danzibr]

Which, in context, isn't a relevant distinction. A Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Daggerspell Mage 1, with practiced spellcaster, has an "Arcane Spellcaster Level" of 7, not 5.

Vulnerable is a good flaw for you, not knowing your stats. If you're comfortable with the save-hit, one of those might be useful too.

Yay, so it looks like it'll work. Yeah... Vulnerable, probably.

So to make sure I understand:

Obtain Familiar: For the purpose of determining familiar abilities that depend on your arcane caster class level, your levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells stack.

Planar Familiar: Arcane spellcaster level required-7th

Practiced Spellcaster: Your caster level for the chosen spellcasting class increases by 4. This benefit can’t increase your caster level to higher than your Hit Dice ... For example, a human 5th-level sorcerer/3rd-level fighter who selects this feat would increase his sorcerer caster level from 5th to 8th.

So for all intents and purposes (EXCEPT spells per day and spell known, apparently) my Goliath Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Unseen Seer 2 will be considered as Wizard 6. Then Rogue 1/Wizard 3/Unseen Seer will be considered at Wizard 7. Is this correct?

Now I just need to figure out how to use my familiar well.

Oh, and lastly, any ideas on the LA buyoff yet starting at ECL 7?

[Flickerdart]

"Caster level" and "arcane spellcaster levels" are different things. One is an explicit game mechanic, and can be raised by Practiced Caster. The other is the combination of all your levels in arcane spellcasting classes, and can't be increased other than by taking more.

[Godskook]

"Caster level" and "arcane spellcaster levels" are different things. One is an explicit game mechanic, and can be raised by Practiced Caster. The other is the combination of all your levels in arcane spellcasting classes, and can't be increased other than by taking more.

1.For the purpose of determining available familiars, "Arcane spellcaster level" how are you reasoning that "Arcane Spellcaster Level" is not "caster level"?

2.(More at OP)For the purpose of determining familiar benefits, the wording is different, being "your levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells".

A rogue 1/wizard 3/unseen seer 3 with the obtain familiar feat selects a familiar as a 7th level wizard would, but it gains the abilities of only a 6th level wizard.

[danzibr]

1.For the purpose of determining available familiars, "Arcane spellcaster level" how are you reasoning that "Arcane Spellcaster Level" is not "caster level"?

2.(More at OP)For the purpose of determining familiar benefits, the wording is different, being "your levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells".

A rogue 1/wizard 3/unseen seer 3 with the obtain familiar feat selects a familiar as a 7th level wizard would, but it gains the abilities of only a 6th level wizard.

Ah, I see the distinction. Thank you.

Yet another question: is "arcane spellcaster level" versus simply "caster level" simply meant to distinguish between arcane and divine?

[Flickerdart]

1.For the purpose of determining available familiars, "Arcane spellcaster level" how are you reasoning that "Arcane Spellcaster Level" is not "caster level"?

Because then they would have said "caster level" or "arcane caster level". The wording is fairly poor as it stands.

[Vinom]

1.For the purpose of determining available familiars, "Arcane spellcaster level" how are you reasoning that "Arcane Spellcaster Level" is not "caster level"?

2.(More at OP)For the purpose of determining familiar benefits, the wording is different, being "your levels in all classes that allow you to cast arcane spells".

A rogue 1/wizard 3/unseen seer 3 with the obtain familiar feat selects a familiar as a 7th level wizard would, but it gains the abilities of only a 6th level wizard.

No no no... Unseen Seer is not a class that "allows you to cast arcane spells", it's a class that extends arcane spell casting along with some thing else, in that example, the familiar would be that of a 3rd level wizard, no more.

There is a reason that PrC's advance Spell per day, spells known, and caster level, and gains no other benifit from a level in the class it's advancing. That blatently includes familiar progression.

The obtain familiar feat does not midigate this... sure it would make wizard, sorcerer, bard, wu jen, beholder mage, and any other class that grant's its own spell progressions stack, but not classes that advance spell progression, not grant it.

The PrC mistake I could understand, but how would the rogue level factor in at all?

[Hand_of_Vecna]

If your so feat starved use the variant that swaps scribe scroll for a fighter feat.

[Godskook]

No no no... Unseen Seer is not a class that "allows you to cast arcane spells", it's a class that extends arcane spell casting along with some thing else, in that example, the familiar would be that of a 3rd level wizard, no more.

There is a reason that PrC's advance Spell per day, spells known, and caster level, and gains no other benifit from a level in the class it's advancing. That blatently includes familiar progression.

The obtain familiar feat does not midigate this... sure it would make wizard, sorcerer, bard, wu jen, beholder mage, and any other class that grant's its own spell progressions stack, but not classes that advance spell progression, not grant it.

What's giving you this uncommon belief that PrClasses that contribute to arcane casting level don't "allow you to cast Arcane Spells".

The PrC mistake I could understand, but how would the rogue level factor in at all?

It doesn't. That's a different point altogether. It concerns the interaction of Planar Familiar and Practiced Spellcaster.

[Vinom]

What's giving you this uncommon belief that PrClasses that contribute to arcane casting level don't "allow you to cast Arcane Spells".

It's a plain fact. Only classes with a spell progression such as base casting classes, ur-priest and other classes with their own spell lists allow you to cast Arcane Spells.

Classes like mystic therge, paragon classes, and any class that extends spell casting don't allow you to cast Arcane spells be cause if you had them without a casting class of the type mentioned above, you can't cast.