Fixing The Favored Soul

[Kuzimu]

So, I love the concept of the Favored Soul, and my DM is willing to work with me to make it remotely playable. What are a few fixes?


Other than removing the MAD and just having them cast on Charisma or Wisdom, but not both, what can I do?

[Darwin]

Just go ahead and play it? Depending on your group's power level and optimization a Favored Soul is a pretty viable even though it looks a bit handicapped compared to Cleric.

[Eldariel]

Oh, they're quite playable out-of-the-box. They just aren't as good as Cleric. I'd say combining the casting stats and giving them Turning/Rebuking (which = channeling divine energy, which means there's absolutely no sense in FS not having it) along with a gradually expanding domain access would put 'em up there.

Maybe giving something slightly better than Wings late and giving Wings already level 8-9 the latest and just improving the speed of their class feature progression. But I'll say it again, they're a strong class compared to non-casters, just weak compared to core casters.

[Gnaeus]

1 Favored soul is completely playable, just entirely weaker than cleric. You can be weaker than superman and still fight crime.

2. Here are some of my fixes:

There are 2 brands of Favored Soul: The Charisma casters use only Charisma for their spells and get Turn Undead as a cleric, the Wisdom casters use only Wisdom for their spells and get one domain appropriate to their deity as a cleric. A FS must choose at first level.

And/Or

Gestalt with a Tier 6.

All Favored Souls get +1 BaB per level. They can choose between Heavy Armor and all Martial Weapons proficiency (Gestalt with Warrior) or 4 skill points per level (Gestalt with Aristocrat).

Either one goes a long way. You could probably give both and they wouldn't outshine a cleric or druid, although they might make your fighter and monk angry.

[Kuzimu]

Okay, thanks for your suggestions.

And I play with a group of powergamers who dabble in the art of the minmax. As someone who's primarily a roleplayer, I love the favored soul concept, but yeah, the class should be somewhat better.

[Ranos]

So, you want the favored soul, but stronger. What exactly do you like in the favored soul that a cleric can't do ?

[deuxhero]

Give them Know:Religion as a class skill.

[Tinydwarfman]

Give them Know:Religion as a class skill.

I second this, I was seriously like WTF?!? when I saw that.

Also, Favored Souls are tier 2. Same as the Sorcerer. Definitely not underpowered. Then again, do you have Uberchargers and Shadowcraft mages in your group? If so this changes drastically.

[Starbuck_II]

I always figured they lacked Know:Religion because they don't have to follow the god who chose them. The god randomly chose a commoner and the guy doesn't even have to know that god was.

I mean, if going epic it sucks, but Epic is broken anyway.

[Ernir]

Know: Religion was given as an option in a web article.

Okay, thanks for your suggestions.

And I play with a group of powergamers who dabble in the art of the minmax. As someone who's primarily a roleplayer, I love the favored soul concept, but yeah, the class should be somewhat better.

Hmm. I don't think that what you need is a fix, so much as a good Favoured Soul build. Because it is a perfectly powerful class. They are full casters with access to the Cleric spell list. Any given FS should be able to stomp through encounters in four or five different ways. They do not have the Cleric's adaptability or flexibility, but raw spellcasting ability they do have. And that's what really matters.

Take spells that complement one another, and more importantly, take spells that you can foresee using every day. Just as a Sorcerer would. What do you want to do? Because a FS can do most of it as well as a Cleric can (except for save-or-x effects, due to the split-stat casting). They just can't do as many things as they can.

[Eldariel]

If you want a Spontaneous Cleric outta the deal, and one that doesn't need to PrC at that, try this:
- Charisma-casting
- Turn Undead on level 1
- WF on 1, WS on 4, Wings on 8, DR on 12 (/Opposing Alignment, which makes 100% more sense than /Metal; TN can choose any of the 4), Su Crit Immunity on 16, Outsider-type along with DR 20/X, Fast Healing & doubled Energy Resistances along with Energy Immunity on 20.
- Energy Resistance as per normal
- One Domain from the deity on 5, 10, 15, 20

Otherwise the same as before. Now you still have slightly slower casting, but at least something to show for it; lots of stuff Clerics tend to PrC for and the fluff-abilities of becoming an Outsider servant of your deity.

You could also add some metamagic boosts along the way as they make all kinds of sense on spontaneous casters.

[Gnaeus]

Take spells that complement one another, and more importantly, take spells that you can foresee using every day. Just as a Sorcerer would. What do you want to do? Because a FS can do most of it as well as a Cleric can (except for save-or-x effects, due to the split-stat casting). They just can't do as many things as they can.

Except that they can't do it as well.
As you noted they are less flexible, but also:
They are a level behind in getting new spells.
They can't power their spells with divine metamagic (well, at high levels they can with PRCs or Dips, but the base class can't).
They don't tank as well as clerics (No heavy armor. Can't trade a domain for Knowledge or Travel or Law Devotion. Can't DMM persist or quicken buffs).
They can't enter a lot of good PRCs because they don't have access to domains.

In low level healbot world, that isn't that big a difference. But in powergamer land those add up to a lot.

[Ernir]

Except that they can't do it as well.
As you noted they are less flexible, but also:
They are a level behind in getting new spells.
They can't power their spells with divine metamagic (well, at high levels they can with PRCs or Dips, but the base class can't).
They don't tank as well as clerics (No heavy armor. Can't trade a domain for Knowledge or Travel or Law Devotion. Can't DMM persist or quicken buffs).
They can't enter a lot of good PRCs because they don't have access to domains.

In low level healbot world, that isn't that big a difference. But in powergamer land those add up to a lot.

Good points. And saying "you can get this and that by taking feat x and PrC y" isn't exactly praise for the base class. (I've built a bunch of Favoured Souls. In particular, qualifying for anything is a PitA, because it always requires domains, turning, or knowledge skills the FS has to get out of its way to get, whereas it's built into the first level of Cleric).

But my point was more that I think that a focused FS can usually catch up with an "generally built" Cleric in an area of its choice. A focused FS vs. a focused Cleric? Yeah, the Cleric simply has more oomph to work with, and will come out ahead. As always.

[T.G. Oskar]

Except that they can't do it as well.
As you noted they are less flexible, but also:
They are a level behind in getting new spells.
They can't power their spells with divine metamagic (well, at high levels they can with PRCs or Dips, but the base class can't).
They don't tank as well as clerics (No heavy armor. Can't trade a domain for Knowledge or Travel or Law Devotion. Can't DMM persist or quicken buffs).
They can't enter a lot of good PRCs because they don't have access to domains.

In low level healbot world, that isn't that big a difference. But in powergamer land those add up to a lot.

A level behind: sorcerers don't exactly worry about that. Being one level behind, even in powergaming, is acceptable (even though not exactly wanted), so as long as you can counteract with something else.

No turn/rebuke: the base class has no turn/rebuke attempts. Sure, that's a problem...except that if you're powergaming, PrCing is actually a must. Dismissal may not be a spell that a Favored Soul might choose, but Dispel Evil has various uses so as to be a proper Favored Soul choice, enough to qualify for Sacred Exorcist which is a typical choice. If Wizards can do that, and Archivists can as well...

No good tanks: well, that's not playing the forte of Favored Souls. As mentioned by Ernir, Favored Souls need to be played with the finesse of Sorcerers: that is, find the actual spells that they'll be expected to use. Mithral Full Plate is medium armor, but if you're so worried, so does a Breastplate which isn't as bad. DMM Persist and DMM Quicken, of course, require a load of nightsticks to be useful, not to mention all the trinkets that grant extra uses of turn undead. Finally, it's far more effective to do DMM Chain than DMM Persist or DMM Quicken, since you are effectively getting more bang for your buck...which is better on Favored Souls since they'll be using their bigger amount of spell slots.

Lack of access to PrCs: that depends on which ones you may wish to get. I'm perfectly sure that Radiant Servant of Pelor isn't one of those choices. Contemplative is also a great way to get domains, and the biggest restriction is the lack of Knowledge (religion), something that may or may not be a strong restriction after all.

On a powergamer world, it depends. Since it depends on what kind of "powergamer" you are. If you're with optimizers, then there's a great chance that you can do mighty fine with them if you optimize your Favored Soul to get the divine utility spells. If you're with min/maxers, getting such stuff as Sacred Exorcist and Contemplative are methods to min-max. If you're with actual powergamers, then I don't see why they can't help you reach their level of power, unless they are aiming for their own characters to win.

If you're with munchkins, tho...well, what are you doing playing with them anyhow?

Still, I don't say it's a bad choice. Whether you believe in Jaron's Tiers or not. Tier 2 is not a bad choice even for powergamers (Ubercharger is based on classes that aren't Tier 1, and Jaron's Tiers don't measure build potential; ToS Tiers do), but it does mean something...

For the OP: if you're going for Favored Soul, it pays to play as a Sorcerer. This may seem odd, but here's the general gist: look at as many books with Cleric spells that you can see. Notice which spells have multitudes of choices: for example, look at stuff like Protection/Magic Circle against (alignment), which grants four kinds of protections. Or Dispel Evil, which serves as a protective spell, a dismissal spell, or a break enchantment (1) spell. Or Restoration, which not only serves to recover from ability damage but also from negative levels, one kind of ability drain, fatigue and exhaustion. Or Dispel Magic, which has three different kinds of choices. These kinds of spells, utility spells as you may call them, are the kinds of spells that you'll wish to cast and spam as much as you possibly can or want. Those are the spells that go into your list; you may even ignore Cure X Wounds if you like, though you can actually work something and get a "mass" (yet weaker) version of Mass Cure X Wounds about a level earlier with Chain Spell. Or, you can go and use all those variants of Dispel Magic and go with the Counterspell option. Favored Soul is not a bad idea, but it's a class that requires a bit more dedication than the usual. It can't be played as you would play a Cleric or Druid (or Archivist), much as a Sorcerer cannot be played as a Wizard does.

[krossbow]

How is Wonder Woman Supposed to be a viable super hero is Superman is so much better?!



Favored soul doesn't need to be "fixed"; Cleric just needs a kick in the nads.

[Tavar]

Personally, I like Person Man's approach, available here. You're spells are limited to you're dieties domains, but you also get more skills(including UMD!) and armor. Plus, domain special abilities, so you actually can get turning for divine feats. Oh, plus some other nifty bonuses, like scaling energy resistance.

[Evard]

Sadly clericzilla has *protection from nad kicking* casted and persisted -_-;;;

FS? Combine the normal FS with the deity favor and make the temp hp stack :D


http://crystalkeep.com/d20/rules/DnD3.5Index-Classes-Base.pdf

[Emmerask]

I second this, I was seriously like WTF?!? when I saw that.

fluff text is quite clear why they don´t get knowledge religion
you don´t work at a church or study scriptures about mythic history or church rituals you just go out there and do deeds.
Presumably the god has chosen you to be one of his fav because he knows your nature and thus you further his goal even if you don´t know from scripts that these are indeed your god´s goals.

[TheThan]

Just give them smite evil and turn undead, make them charisma focused and call them a paladin.

[Evard]

that works pretty well

maybe a lay on hands ability, this to me would be on the same level as allowing a cleric to cast any prepared spell as a healing spell.

[Starbuck_II]

How is Wonder Woman Supposed to be a viable super hero is Superman is so much better?!



Favored soul doesn't need to be "fixed"; Cleric just needs a kick in the nads.

Because she has magic items (bracers to block bullets/increase Strength/Dex/Con, invisible plane, lasso of truth, etc).
Heck she can fly. She only uses the plane because she can't fly as fast as the plane.
Superman gets 2 but mostly just free templates (Items: super computer/Lair but he gets his Super Template instead).

Really, since she gets more magic items they are equal.

[Tinydwarfman]

Just give them smite evil and turn undead, make them charisma focused and call them a paladin.

+1 to this.

[Thurbane]

My 2 cents? Favored Soul is very weak compared to the Cleric, but relatively strong compared to a Sorcerer - more spells known, better HP, actual class features (albeit very crappy ones), ability to cast in armor, three good saves and 3/4 BAB. If you look at them as a divine Sorcerer variant, instead of a spontaneous Cleric, they start to look a lot more reasonable. Admittedly, arcane spells are generally better than equal level divine spells...

The dual-stat casting is a pain, though, and why it was never errata'd for them to have Knowledge (Religion) on their lists, I'll never know. Also, why medium armor? Why not heavy? I guess they are supposed to be less combat focused than a Cleric, but still annoying.

[Sinfire Titan]

Take out two of their spells/day (not spells known). Give them the ACFs from Dragon Magic, PH2, and give them a Bonus Domain/Reserve Feat from CC/CM every 4 levels (and an alternative means of fueling those feats).

[Optimystik]

My 2 cents? Favored Soul is very weak compared to the Cleric, but relatively strong compared to a Sorcerer - more spells known, better HP, actual class features (albeit very crappy ones), ability to cast in armor, three good saves and 3/4 BAB. If you look at them as a divine Sorcerer variant, instead of a spontaneous Cleric, they start to look a lot more reasonable. Admittedly, arcane spells are generally better than equal level divine spells...

I personally consider the sorcerer-only bonuses (spells and feats) to be class features. Certainly they get more love this way than FS ever did.

The dual-stat casting is a pain, though, and why it was never errata'd for them to have Knowledge (Religion) on their lists, I'll never know. Also, why medium armor? Why not heavy? I guess they are supposed to be less combat focused than a Cleric, but still annoying.

They were actually intended to be more combat focused, at least physically. The MADness means they can't rely on offensive magic as much as a cleric can (and clerics were already poor in that regard) so they were expected to buff up and enter melee. The favored weapon gives them free martial (or even exotic!) proficiency with the right choice of deity. So the lack of heavy armor is more of an oversight in my opinion.

[Rainbownaga]

They qualify for versatile spellcaster abuse. That's got to be worth something.

[Gnaeus]

A level behind: sorcerers don't exactly worry about that. Being one level behind, even in powergaming, is acceptable (even though not exactly wanted), so as long as you can counteract with something else.

Actually, its a big problem for sorcerers. One of the reasons they are generally weaker than wizards. Of course, sorcerers have actual support from other books, and they can make that up with more powerful spells (wings of flurry), class options, and brokenness like venerable kobolds with free sorcerer levels. Favored souls don't get that support.

No turn/rebuke: the base class has no turn/rebuke attempts. Sure, that's a problem...except that if you're powergaming, PrCing is actually a must. Dismissal may not be a spell that a Favored Soul might choose, but Dispel Evil has various uses so as to be a proper Favored Soul choice, enough to qualify for Sacred Exorcist which is a typical choice. If Wizards can do that, and Archivists can as well...

1. I can make a cleric which can DMM at level 1. With extra turning from a domain as well as extend spell if I want it.

2. Without spending extra feats or level dipping for knowledges a Favored Soul doesn't get knowledge (planes) 10 until about level 17. Knowledge Religion 7 at level 11. So you are spending 2 feats or another level dip to take a PRC solely for the purpose of getting something that clerics get better at level 1. Might as well dip cleric 1 and call it a day.

3. Archivists have better class features and a vastly better spell list to compensate them for going through hoops.

No good tanks: well, that's not playing the forte of Favored Souls. As mentioned by Ernir, Favored Souls need to be played with the finesse of Sorcerers: that is, find the actual spells that they'll be expected to use. Mithral Full Plate is medium armor, but if you're so worried, so does a Breastplate which isn't as bad. DMM Persist and DMM Quicken, of course, require a load of nightsticks to be useful, not to mention all the trinkets that grant extra uses of turn undead. Finally, it's far more effective to do DMM Chain than DMM Persist or DMM Quicken, since you are effectively getting more bang for your buck...which is better on Favored Souls since they'll be using their bigger amount of spell slots.

Hmm. So you don't get good SoD's. You can't melee well. Battlefield control is done better by other classes. Your attack spells are the weakest of any full caster except for the healer. What are these spells that you are expecting to use? I guess you could make a competent buffer.

Lack of access to PrCs: that depends on which ones you may wish to get. I'm perfectly sure that Radiant Servant of Pelor isn't one of those choices. Contemplative is also a great way to get domains, and the biggest restriction is the lack of Knowledge (religion), something that may or may not be a strong restriction after all.

MOST of the decent divine PRCs look to me like they require at least one (usually 2 or more) of the following: Knowledge (Religion) 7+ ranks. Domain Access. Turning. Specific spells that you can cast (like 2 divinations for Div Oracle, or Magic Weapon for Ordained Champion). All of those things a cleric gets virtually for free. All of those things a Favored Soul must spend feats or dips on if he plans to enter anywhere near normal entry level, or otherwise reduce his already limited options by taking spells he doesn't necessarily want on his limited spell list. Taking an opportunity cost for something that clerics get for free is a bad thing. Especially when the benefit of that cost (like turning or a couple of domains) is also something that clerics get for free.

For the OP: if you're going for Favored Soul, it pays to play as a Sorcerer. This may seem odd, but here's the general gist: look at as many books with Cleric spells that you can see. Notice which spells have multitudes of choices: for example, look at stuff like Protection/Magic Circle against (alignment), which grants four kinds of protections. Or Dispel Evil, which serves as a protective spell, a dismissal spell, or a break enchantment (1) spell. Or Restoration, which not only serves to recover from ability damage but also from negative levels, one kind of ability drain, fatigue and exhaustion. Or Dispel Magic, which has three different kinds of choices. These kinds of spells, utility spells as you may call them, are the kinds of spells that you'll wish to cast and spam as much as you possibly can or want. Those are the spells that go into your list; you may even ignore Cure X Wounds if you like, though you can actually work something and get a "mass" (yet weaker) version of Mass Cure X Wounds about a level earlier with Chain Spell. Or, you can go and use all those variants of Dispel Magic and go with the Counterspell option. Favored Soul is not a bad idea, but it's a class that requires a bit more dedication than the usual. It can't be played as you would play a Cleric or Druid (or Archivist), much as a Sorcerer cannot be played as a Wizard does.

And if your DM specifically crafts his campaign to favor your spell list this might work. Of course, if your DM specifically crafts his campaign to favor a fighter or monk they do ok as well. I can say that Oskar's Favored Soul as described in the last paragraph would have been sitting on his hands in about 3/4ths of the encounters of my current campaign. If you are in a competitive game, don't listen to anything he says.

[Person_Man]

Shameless homebrew plug.

[T.G. Oskar]

Actually, its a big problem for sorcerers. One of the reasons they are generally weaker than wizards.

Hunh? I thought it was because of other stuff.

Being a level behind is not a big problem so as long as you know what you're doing. Heck, Sorcerers can be one level above sometimes if they so desire. That's roughly for the first two levels, then they're roughly equal up until 5th level when the Wizard gets 3rd level spells. Right at that moment, the difference is not as crucial as the Sorcerer is still capable of keeping up.

I had the idea that other stuff held more weight than spell level accessibility; the amount of spells that the wizard can cast being the thing with most weight, for example. The latter implies a knowledge of the playing style of the Sorcerer and the Wizard.

Of course, sorcerers have actual support from other books, and they can make that up with more powerful spells (wings of flurry), class options, and brokenness like venerable kobolds with free sorcerer levels. Favored souls don't get that support.

Favored souls don't get that support because sorcerers exist since the 3.0 edition of D&D, while it took Favored Souls to reach the Minis Handbook (which is already part of the 3.5 ruleset) to even exist, and they began to really exist by Complete Divine. Obviously they aren't going to have much support...

...except that they do have some support. There are several ACFs for Favored Souls, there are feats that were originally made for Sorcerers and Bards but that Favored Souls take equal benefit from (Rapid Metamagic and, as mentioned, Versatile Spellcaster comes to mind). Favored Souls get actual support, which is good.

I presume that there's a deeper meaning to actual support, as in you intend to mean that only what can make a sorcerer be on equal or greater terms to a wizard is actual support. Or that what fixes the Sorcerer (to a point) is actual support. Correct me if I'm wrong on that one.

1. I can make a cleric which can DMM at level 1. With extra turning from a domain as well as extend spell if I want it.

Oh yeah...have fun with Detect Undead and Deathwatch as your domain spells, and being only able to persist Entropic Shield and Divine Favor, possibly Bane and Bless, and Obscuring Mist. Certainly, those aren't bad spells to persist, but...it beats the point when it doesn't provides the benefit you seek (except the first two, which are what you seek)...

...unless you mean persisting touch spells. Which...I reckon there's a problem right there. It all depends if you consider touch spells to have a fixed rang for purposes of the Persistent Spell feat. If you do...well, you can persist Shield of Faith, Magic Weapon and...Protection from Evil, but that makes Shield of Faith utterly redundant. But if you don't (and I'm sure touch range isn't fixed, as it depends on your actual reach), then your spells are much limited.

Persistent Spell is actually more useful when the spells that you really want to have 24 hours become available; while you reach them, most of the spells you'd want Persisted you could get them Extended for nearly the same result. Stuff like Greater Magic Weapon, Magic Vestment and hour/level durations are best Extended rather than Persisted.

I'd personally get Quicken Spell before Persistent Spell, and use Divine Metamagic for it, but that's just me. It's less expensive than Persistent Spell and I can get more bang for my buck with it, plus I don't get restricted with the domains (since I find other domains to be equally great).

2. Without spending extra feats or level dipping for knowledges a Favored Soul doesn't get knowledge (planes) 10 until about level 17. Knowledge Religion 7 at level 11. So you are spending 2 feats or another level dip to take a PRC solely for the purpose of getting something that clerics get better at level 1. Might as well dip cleric 1 and call it a day.

Well, I'd rather dip somewhere else. Dread Necro seems like a mighty fine dip to me.

Still, I don't see the problem with it. Getting Turn Undead so that the Favored Soul can DMM is just one of the options they can get. Versatile Spellcaster and what you can do with that is another.

3. Archivists have better class features and a vastly better spell list to compensate them for going through hoops.

Yeah, because Still Mind is far better than Energy Resistance :P

As for going through the hoops, again: if you're going to spend several levels getting huge amounts of Knowledge (the Planes) and Knowledge (religion) and either Dismissal or Dispel Evil, and dip into a PrC just to get Turn Undead, might as well dip into a Cleric and call it a day. Isn't that what you just said? In any case, that would make the Archivist's class features and whatnot rather pointless, since the idea was to get Turn Undead without touching Cleric.

Now, if the idea is actually the latter; yes, the Archivist has better chances to get Turn Undead through Sacred Exorcist with less effort than Favored Soul. There is a big chance that the Archivist might use DMM Persist better than a Favored Soul. And much bigger chances to use DMM Quicken, as well. Aside from the ability to choose from all Knowledge skills, you didn't had to use any of your class abilities to compensate for getting through the hoops. None of them, at all. At the end, they both get the same benefit: Archivist gets Turn Undead, Favored Soul invests a bit more but also gets Turn Undead. They both get to invest on the same thing after all. Except the Archivist might need to invest on Charisma, or Extra Turning, to get the same benefits that the Favored Soul will probably get because one of its main slots is Charisma.

So yeah, the Archivist still has to invest, and none of the class features aside from their skill list aids them on that matter. The Archivist's spell list does grant a compensation for the reason why you get Divine Metamagic and Persistent Spell; a theoretically bigger spell list depending on your access to Magic-Mart (tm). Playing that way with a Favored Soul lies madness; hence, you get the spells that really matter, and the spells with which you can do more stuff (you know, just like a Sorcerer does!)

Hmm. So you don't get good SoD's.

Darn. I'll give the bad news to Holy Word...wait, Holy Word grants no saving throw. Neither does the alignment equivalents to those.

Yep, no good SoDs, yes siree!

You can't melee well.

Yeah, because you can't get to Persist Divine Power and Righteous Might and whatnot...well, you actually can, but you'll need some effort. Or is it because they can't get heavy armor? Mithral Full Plate is heavy armor; then again, you don't need armor to get a high AC. Or is it because you'd be a bit distracted with other spells?

Seriously, I'd like to know how they can't melee well. Or why would they need to melee well (I mean, is it imperative that Clerics are front-line characters?)

Battlefield control is done better by other classes.

Well yeah, sure. That I agree with. Clerics aren't battlefield controllers, unless I recall wrong; if they were, be sure that you can get access to the same spell as a Favored Soul, except that you would require to think on the spell slot.

I recall battlefield control is best left for a Wizard, since a Sorcerer's battlefield control is limited to which spells are suited for utility spells. Or a Druid, which is odd since they cover all bases. And you may argue an Archivist, as well.

Your attack spells are the weakest of any full caster except for the healer.

Umm...so that means Favored Soul's spells are weaker than a Favored Soul's spells, since Favored Souls are also full spellcasters.

Maybe you're adding Beguilers (which have very, very few attack spells) and Dread Necromancers (which has a limited list of attack spells) as well. If you're bashing the Favored Souls' spells, then you're by definition bashing the Cleric's attack spells as well. That's about three more full casters that may have equal or weaker attack spells, right there.

Then there's Water Shugenjas, which deny Fire spells which are the bulk of the Shugenja spell list. Then there's the Shaman, whose spell list is pretty similar to the Cleric, alongside some Druid spells, but they don't seem mostly offensive.

So...do I continue? Attack spells depend on caster level most of the time, not spell level or saving throw. If they depend on saving throws, then it only means they need to get a higher saving throw; what are the chances that you won't find a way to raise your saving throw DC?

Consider: is it so important to have a large Strength, Dexterity and Constitution modifier so as to be worthwhile as a Favored Soul? Or just mostly Wisdom and Charisma?

What are these spells that you are expecting to use? I guess you could make a competent buffer.

Spells that have more than one use; utility spells. Dispel Magic and the Greater version are good examples. Dispel Evil (and alignment counterparts) are other examples. Even the lowly Protection from X is a good example, since you're providing four great protections. Harm is also good. Destruction even better. Implosion far more. Heal (and Mass Heal, but Chained Heal is just as good). Gate. Miracle. Any of the Summon Monster types. Obscuring Mist.

...and sure, let's go with more buffs. Resist Energy. Greater Magic Weapon. Magic Vestment.

Now, I could choose a bit more, but it requires being pretty creative (like, Stone Shape).

MOST of the decent divine PRCs look to me like they require at least one (usually 2 or more) of the following: Knowledge (Religion) 7+ ranks. Domain Access. Turning. Specific spells that you can cast (like 2 divinations for Div Oracle, or Magic Weapon for Ordained Champion). All of those things a cleric gets virtually for free. All of those things a Favored Soul must spend feats or dips on if he plans to enter anywhere near normal entry level, or otherwise reduce his already limited options by taking spells he doesn't necessarily want on his limited spell list. Taking an opportunity cost for something that clerics get for free is a bad thing. Especially when the benefit of that cost (like turning or a couple of domains) is also something that clerics get for free.

Uh-huh, but you actually specified domain access, not any of the other options. It seems that, after a second check, just going through domain access wasn't enough to justify that point.

As for the other restrictions: it all depends. Looking above, you just took two domains for their domain powers and perhaps...one or two spells (Planning's Time Stop, perhaps...). That, right there, is shooting yourself on options just to get something earlier so that...well...what's the benefit again? Persisted Divine Favor for +1 to attack and damage rolls on yourself at 1st level? You might have gotten other domains instead of those.

Which is the point. Trying to get options for one class may seem to be bad if other class has them for free; it is definitely bad when you get those options for free and you blow them.

So...if you want a Favored Soul to get Turning through one way or another, or get Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (the planes) to get access to a PrC, go ahead. It may seem limited, but at least you're having a plan for those (and that's not exactly being a Cleric-wannabe); same as why would a Wizard make a dip at Sacred Exorcist to gain Turning, or getting, say, Skill Focus (Knowledge [religion]) for Divine Oracle.

If what you get in exchange is better than what you sacrifice, then it's not a bad trade at all. This may seem odd for Favored Soul, since at glance it seems to exchange one thing for nothing (or something weaker), but rest assured it's not.

And if your DM specifically crafts his campaign to favor your spell list this might work. Of course, if your DM specifically crafts his campaign to favor a fighter or monk they do ok as well.

Mm-hmm, because utility spells never see any use. You'd have to be facing purely neutral creatures to gain no benefit from Dispel Evil or Protection from Evil, or you'd have to be facing creatures without magic so that Dispel Magic loses effectiveness...

I can say that Oskar's Favored Soul as described in the last paragraph would have been sitting on his hands in about 3/4ths of the encounters of my current campaign.

Is he on your group, by any ways? For all I know, his conception of powergaming and min-maxing may not be what your (and my) conception of those words means. Besides, if they "min-max", there's a big chance they may aid him a bit on how to "min-max" as well (unless, of course, they're unwilling to do so, which begs the question of why is he playing with them...)

What I gave, Gnaeus, is advice. He's not a powergamer, as I can recall, so I gave him the advice that a powergamer would follow; read the books. That's why I said "read the books and find those spells that have multitudes of choices" (though I should have said options); those are mostly utility spells, which will be those spells that he'll wish to cast over and over again.

The reason I pointed him that out is because, if even by taking the limits of his class he's falling behind in the encounters, then it makes perfect sense to fix the class; if he manages to keep up just barely, he can take whichever boosts he might want (such as treating Knowledge [religion] as a class skill without anything else, or being able to choose from Domain spells of his deity, or getting Turn/Rebuke Undead as a Cleric does) to edge out ahead. If he does better than his peers, then they aren't real powergamers and he was worrying for nothing.

If you are in a competitive game, don't listen to anything he says.

Uh...sure, since D&D is meant to be won and everything...

[HunterOfJello]

Just play a spontaneous casting Cleric alternative from Unearthed Arcana for a true fix.




Otherwise there's a good fix that involves a favored soul gaining several domains as he levels up. Each domain has to be linked to the deity he is a favored soul of. So at level 1 the favored soul would have 2 domains then gain another at 4 8 12 16 and 20 or something like that. It helps the character boost their spells known and can make a really interesting character.

The one temporary hp alternative class feature that favored souls have is also useful and much better than their stupid divine weapon feat thing.


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One character in my current group was a new player and wanted to play a favored soul. I figured it was a simpler character class that he could play than messing around with a Cleric so I let him. He ended up deciding to become a Favored Soul of Boccob. I was impressed with his choice so I ended up giving him the Magic Domain and the ability to add 1 arcane spell to his spell list at his highest current spell level at each level (similar to the Arcane Disciple Cleric alternative class feature). So far he's enjoying the character a lot and doing well.

I'm considering giving him extra domains from Boccob's list if his character doesn't work out too well, but I doubt that will end up happening.

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No matter how you play a Favored Soul they're never going to match up to the extremely overpowered Cleric. However, don't sweat it. You're still playing a tier 2 class that can is powerful in its own right.