Complete Champion

[Tinydwarfman]

What is so bad about it? I've heard lots of people say their DM's don't allow it, but why?

[Saph]

Complete Champion was the last of the player resource books that WotC released for 3.5, and so the developers basically threw into it everything that they had lying around, regardless of whether it made any thematic sense and with less editing and playtesting than usual. As a result it's got a higher percentage of very powerful/broken material than is usual for an expansion book.

Admittedly there's some good stuff in there too, but a DM thinking of allowing it should read the book carefully to figure out what they should/shouldn't allow.

[Amiel]

In before everyone else.


Divine Metamagic.

[Ferrin]

In before everyone else.


Divine Metamagic.

...Which is in Complete Divine. Sorry.

There's the Lion Totem ACF for barbarian and Knowledge Devotion feat from the top of my head which are fairly powerfull. But I can't think of much else at the moment.

[AslanCross]

I thought it was pretty decent. Ordained Champion, for one, and a bunch of spells that are still worth using. There is a bunch of suck in it, though. I didn't like the Shadowstriker and Shadowspy. Some of the other Devotion feats are pretty lame.

[Tinydwarfman]

...Which is in Complete Divine. Sorry.

There's the Lion Totem ACF for barbarian and Knowledge Devotion feat from the top of my head which are fairly powerfull. But I can't think of much else at the moment.

And Travel, Strength, and Law devotion are also good, along with Ordained Champion, but none of this stuff is broken-good. (well maybe pounce ACF just because it is so much better than 10ft move speed by comparison)

[Amiel]

:( I is a sad panda.

Ah well, they're usually the first feats to either be houseruled away or banned.

But yes, Complete Champion seems to have had the lion's share of unbalanced material.

[Tinydwarfman]

:( I is a sad panda.

Ah well, they're usually the first feats to either be houseruled away or banned.

But yes, Complete Champion seems to have had the lion's share of unbalanced material.

But, why Champion and not Divine? I mean, Divine Metamagic and Ur-priest beats everything in Champion.

[Ernir]

But yes, Complete Champion seems to have had the lion's share of unbalanced material.

Hmm. Unbalanced, maybe. There's quite a bit of stuff in there that's better than comparable options (and as always, quite a bit that's worse). Like some of the Devotion feats, and the Spirit Lion Totem for the Barbarian.

But broken, I don't think so. At least, I can't think of anything. Spontaneous Divination. Nothing on the Divine Metamagic & Dweomerkeeper scale of broken, as we got with Complete Divine (and its web enhancement).

[Saph]

But, why Champion and not Divine? I mean, Divine Metamagic and Ur-priest beats everything in Champion.

I think it's because Complete Champion has a "who cares if it's good, we don't care enough to test it" vibe to it. There's very little normal-power material - there are a few broken things and a huge amount of stuff which is pretty much useless.

[Merk]

I don't think it's all that bad. Most of the "unbalanced" material in it seems to favor noncasters, and devotion feats, while more powerful than other feats, are a cool option. I mean, you get a very limited option of feats through 20 levels, do you really want to squander it on weapon focus or toughness when you can get pseudo-wildshape, free movement, or being able to make convincing duplicates of yourself which scale with character level?

[Tinydwarfman]

I think it's because Complete Champion has a "who cares if it's good, we don't care enough to test it" vibe to it. There's very little normal-power material - there are a few broken things and a huge amount of stuff which is pretty much useless.

So you ban non-good options? Because all of the 'broken' things so far listed are just strong choices, hardly broken. And there are always useless feats and PrC's in every book. Why the ban on it and nothing else? I'm calling out to you here, Complete Champion banners.

[T.G. Oskar]

It has some questionable stuff, and some sucky stuff.

Not all Devotion feats are good, but some are pretty nice. Animal Devotion is perfect flight for a minute, which is excellent when you actually need it (it also grants other stuff, which may not be as useful). The alignment domains aren't as bad, although Law is the best of the group. Trickery Devotion is another one of the good spells. Death Devotion grants a specific amount of negative levels with attacks (yes, it has a Fort save, but it scales with character level and it applies to all attacks until you exhaust your negative levels). Destruction Devotion reduces AC with successful hits. What's better is that Devotion feats scale with level, and have only thematic restrictions.

It has also other stuff. It has a patch-feat for Paladins (Battle Blessing), one of the best reserve feats around (Touch of Healing, even if it's up to half your maximum hit points), it has the aforementioned Spiritual Lion Totem ACF for Barbarians but also other choices for other classes (Rogues can deal 1/2 Sneak Attack damage against undead by exchanging trap sense; Sorcerers and Wizards gain a measure of domain access; Bards can use Protection from Evil instead of Inspire Competence with their Bardic Music and become better healers instead of Fascinating; Clerics gain Lay on Hands...keyed off their caster level, yet counting as if you had a "Cha" of 20 constantly), it has some nice PrCs (Fist of the Forest, Ordained Champion, Kord's and Wee Jas' Sanctified Ones), several nice spells, and whatnot.

It does have some stinky stuff (Shadowspy and Shadowstriker stink, for example), but it's not really a bad book. Most DMs ban it because they are afraid of a book with too many crunch options, or having a book that's the Divine analog to Complete Psionic (which I reckon some people claim it doesn't exists...)

[Emmerask]

I have it on my banlist mainly because I don´t own it and nobody else I know too.
If someone would buy it though and bring it with him (pdf or hardcover don´t care) I would have no problem with it. Like with any other book overpowered things would be banned or modified.

[Saph]

So you ban non-good options?

Yes, definitely. I also ban all good options as well, so be allowed to take any options at all, players must convince me by the Socratic method that the option is neither good nor non-good. Standard debating rules apply and the rest of the group award points based on style, control, damage and aggression. The winner is then awarded a chocolate egg (which we buy in bulk prior to sessions).

[Sinfire Titan]

What it has are automatic choices, garbage, decent ideas, and fluff.

Compare to CD, which has fluff, much more garbage, and game breakers.

Knowledge, Travel, Law, Destruction, Healing, Earth, Trickery, Air, Plant, Protection, and the Lion-Totem ACF are all either automatic choices or decent ideas.

War, Fire, Sun, Good, Evil, and 4 of the PrCs are garbage.

The affiliations are a good idea mixed with fluff.

[UglyPanda]

Yes, definitely. I also ban all good options as well, so be allowed to take any options at all, players must convince me by the Socratic method that the option is neither good nor non-good. Standard debating rules apply and the rest of the group award points based on style, control, damage and aggression. The winner is then awarded a chocolate egg (which we buy in bulk prior to sessions).

Is this sarcasm?

If not, then your group is weird.

[Mongoose87]

Is this sarcasm?

If not, then your group is weird.

I thought everyone did this.

[Optimystik]

There is nothing wrong with Complete Champion. I certainly rate it above Complete Warrior and Adventurer.

The Devotions and Affiliations are excellent, there are handful of good PrCs amidst the dross (Ordained Champion, Mythic Exemplar, Fist of the Forest and the excellent Paragnostic Apostle) and the book balances fluff with the crunch fairly well, coming up with very flavorful and reasonable ways to advance ones standing in a church that were modular enough to be slotted into just about any campaign.

I think part of the backlash against it is because it was meant to be for Complete Divine what Complete Mage was for Complete Arcane... taking a strong foundation and using it as a jumping-off point for something truly amazing. For example, while CMage provided excellent new options for all of the new CArc base classes, CChamp largely ignored the Favored Soul, Shugenja and Spirit Shaman. Its focus on domains and church affiliation don't provide useful options for any of them.

[The Glyphstone]

Is this sarcasm?

If not, then your group is awesome.

Fixed that for you, Panda.

[Kaiyanwang]

I didn't find it so broken. The barbarian ACF is maybe the most powerful for barbarian, but in some games is more a game safer than a game breaker.

If break your games, ban it, but I'm pretty happy that is there, if needed.

I Maybe like the book just for battle blessing. I find Devotions more weird than broken or so.. but consider that in my games there are not magic marts to obtain any number of Nightsticks.

I found the book more unispiring than broken: some spell just don't fit with my world. And I'm not sure that people writing the fluff knew well core rules and fluff, but maybe I'm wrong.

[Gralamin]

How have we gotten this far without a single mention of the most broken thing in the book?

Wizard ACF: Spontaneous Divination. Gives you access to all divinations, not just Wizard ones, and makes you a prepared and spontaneous arcane caster at the same time, allowing you to qualify for Ultimate Magus with Wizard alone.

[PlzBreakMyCmpAn]

I think it's because Complete Champion has a "who cares if it's good, we don't care enough to test it" vibe to it. There's very little normal-power material - there are a few broken things and a huge amount of stuff which is pretty much useless.

This feels like 90% of DnD to me.

Think about it.