Monk/Paladin build?

[Project_Cobalt]

Something that came up at the table last night, and is definitely of interest to me - how exactly would a Monk/Paladin build work, and can I make an effective one without becoming a ridiculous combination of race/feats/alternate class features?

Here are the books I have at my disposal:

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PHB
MM
DMG
PHB 2
Complete Warrior
Complete Adventurer
Complete Divine
Miniatures Handbook
Cityscape
Dungeonscape
Eberron Campaign Setting

Because I don't really have a character concept in mind, it's mostly just the question of how to make this an effective build. Any suggestions?

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

The best course of action would probably be something like Monk 2/ Cleric 4/ Prestige Paladin 3/ Sacred Fist 10/ Contemplative 1.

[Flickerdart]

This will never be an effective build, because it needs all stats to function (except maybe INT). You will want to take Serenity (Dragon Mag) to switch the Paladin's class features to Wis. Ascetic Knight (CA) lets your Paladin and Monk levels stack for unarmed strike and Smite attempts.

The main strength of a Paladin is his mount, as a mounted charger is good. The Monk wouldn't be able to use a lance for his abilities, so that's a no-go. Power Attack, the feat so relied on for bonus damage, doesn't give a good return on Unarmed Strike. I suppose the Decisive Strike and Charging Smite variants (both PHBII IIRC) would help mitigate that somewhat, letting you make a charge with your Monk speed and pump a whole bunch of damage into it.

The problem is that both Monk and Paladin are front-loaded, so after Monk 6/Paladin 5 there's really nothing you want from either class. Without a PrC option and an insane stat array, you're going to suck.

Now. There's a Prestigious Paladin variant in Unearthed Arcana. A Cloistered Cleric/Monk/Sacred Fist can afford to take a few levels of it, meaning that you get better spellcasting, your BAB loss from Monk is fixed with DMM Persisted Divine Power and your poor armour-less AC has DMM Persisted Magic Vestment to cover it. This is actually not so bad; 3 levels of Prestigious Paladin with Ascetic Knight and 2 Monk levels will give you 2 smites and most everything else a Paladin has. Serenity is again your friend, as your awesomely high Cleric casting stat will be adding to your saves. If you can convince your DM to let Ascetic Knight stack for Lay on Hands and Remove Disease as well, it'll take some of the load off your Cleric spell slots.

Edit: Or you could take Ninja levels

Double edit: For an alternate option, you could go Monk/Sorcerer/Paladin/Enlightened Fist/Abjurant Champion with Ascetic Mage. You get CHA to AC instead of WIS, CHA to saves, and healing, however minor, that a Sorcerer couldn't normally do. Other than the Monk bit, a Sorcadin is a standard and quite effective gish.

[Riffington]

It's kind of a shame that you don't get tome of battle, because ruby knight vindicator using (unarmed?) swordsage/paladin is actually a pretty cool class.

[Flickerdart]

If he had ToB, an Unarmed Swordsage/Crusader would fill his needs in an effective fashion, yes. Perhaps going into Master of Nine.

[tyckspoon]

If you didn't want to go the Prestige Paladin route, I'd want Ascetic Knight (Comp. Adventurer, allows multiclassing back and forth between Monk and Paladin, stacks Monk/Paladin levels to determine unarmed damage) and Serenity (Dragon Magazine, unfortunately, but it really helps to make this function- bases your Paladin special abilities on Wis instead of Cha. Divine feats will still be based on Cha, which is annoying.)

Your basic stub is Monk 2/Paladin 2, which gets you most of the immediately relevant features from both. You'll be dang near unkillable, but your offense will be pretty sad, and you'll need crazy-good stats- this is one of the MADdest possible concepts. From there.. hmm.. I'd probably focus on the Monk side and look at things like Fist of the Forest, simply because I don't know of many especially good Paladin PrCs. Maybe Paladin 4 for Turn Undead if you somehow get good enough stats to make good use of Divine feats.

[gdiddy]

I would go with Monk 2 / Pally 2 / xxxxxx 16.

(Probably Cleric, Crusader, or Psychic warrior.)

[Mongoose87]

I would go with Monk 2 / Pally 2 / xxxxxx 16.

(Probably Cleric, Crusader, or Psychic warrior.)

With the Serenity feat, Psychic Warrior would probably be a pretty cool choice, and the feats are nice.

[Human Paragon 3]

This thread is relevant to your interests. It's 40 posts of people saying a monk/paladin build is impossible and stupid to try, then Epinephrine and I laying out a really effective monk/paladin build centered around smiting and stunning first. Enhancing your fists with paladin spells, making yourself single-atribute dependant via serenity (intuitive attack? whatever makes you dependant in wis for attacks) and boosting your stun dc as high as possible is the key.

Looking at your available books, I don't see access to serenity/intutive attack, so you'll have to petition your DM to allow it. All it does is make attacks dependant on wisdom, but it is essential to the build, else you can't get your stun DC high enough. If he's reasonable, he will allow it.

EDIT: And ignore the pointless side discussion of the BMI of the female paladin in question.

[Zellic Solis]

Also remember that monk paladin combinations have been shown to cause intense levels of bitchiness in the characters, attract the attention (and passions) of psychotic halflings, and may result in the destruction of the city they are charged with protecting.

Just fyi...

[T.G. Oskar]

Considering the books, it's pretty little what you can do.

First and foremost, the guy lacks Unearthed Arcana. Sure, it's on the Hyperlink d20, but not sure if he can let that one fly. So Cloistered Cleric/Prestige Paladin is probably a no-go.

No Complete Arcane, so he can't use Persistent Spell (thus, no DMM Persist)

No Dragon Magazine, so no Serenity.

No ToB, so no unarmed Swordsage, no Crusader, no Ruby Knight Vindicator, not much of anything.

No Complete Mage, so no Abjurant Champion.

...do I continue?

So, based on the list, I can issue a few things.

• The biggest problem will be the ability scores. You'll need a lot of ability scores to be successful, although you may probably go well with no armor and two levels of Monk. Dex, Wis and Cha should be pretty high, with Weapon Finesse as your 3rd level feat. You'll need to do something with your damage, though...
  
• Gauntlets of the Talon. You have Complete Divine, so you can justify getting what you need. Quite probably you'll need one more feat (which is bad on your build, but that's unavoidable), which is True Believer. That way, you can activate Gauntlets of the Talon. The benefits are quite nice, considering you're going for Monk/Paladin: +5 effective Monk level for AC, unarmed damage and ki strike. There's an updated version on the MIC if you need to see it, which is cheaper but doesn't allow you to stack your levels with Monk's Belt or whatnot.
  
• Ability scores. Unless you somehow get a decent set of abilities to get four ability scores high, you'll need to depend on a few. Wisdom is necessary for Will saves, your AC as a Monk, and your Paladin spells (if you wish to keep them), so it may need to be pretty high. Charisma is needed for your smite damage, your saves and your lay on hands; it'll need to be pretty high as well. Dex will be needed for Reflex, and if you manage to work it out, for attack rolls. If you won't get Weapon Finesse, you'll need Strength for attack rolls and damage rolls. Finally, there's the thing with a good Constitution for high Fort and high HP; I would ignore the latter, given that you already have a decent Fort with Monk (+3), you may want to part later on to another class (Sacred Fist) which grants more Fort, and you'll have a good amount of d10s which means a solid amount of HP. In any case: WIS = CHA > Dex > Str > Con > Int.
  
• Feat choices. You have access to a lot of feats but very limited feat choices. Depending on your ability scores, you may need Weapon Finesse. You will want Ascetic Knight (CAdv) for better unarmed damage and Smite Evil power, as well as multiclassing between Monk and Paladin. If you're going for Gauntlets of the Talon and worshipping Bahamut, you may want True Believer. That's...three feats out of the possible 7, and we haven't even considered what else to add. As for good choices: Divine Might (Cha to attack and damage = good), Freezing the Lifeblood (make your stunning attempts spectacular when they're needed). As for general choices: anything that boosts your attack or your defense is really, really good, but better if it manages to scale somehow. Thus, no Dodge, no Mobility, no Spring Attack. You may do well playing as a counter Monk, so if you can get either Karmic Strike (CWar) or Robilar's Gambit (PHBII) you're pretty set; you may already have good Dex and Combat Reflexes through Monk 2nd level. Don't get Improved Grapple nor Deflect Arrows; pure Stunning Fist and Combat Reflexes for you.
  
• Alternate Class Features. If you're going for Counter Monk, Decisive Strike is cost-effective. You'll do one attack that deals double damage, but all your attacks for the remainder of the round also deal double damage. Mix Combat Reflexes + Improved Trip on the list, and you're pretty set. Since you'll probably won't use the special mount, Divine Spirit (Dungeonscape) is one of the best replacements you can get for your mount.
  
• Prestige Classes. If possible, try and get to Sacred Fist. You'll have to expend a feat slot on something that's pointless (Combat Casting), but you'll progress your limited yet still useful Paladin spellcasting, your Monk AC, unarmed strike and fast movement, and you'll get eventually Holy Aura...so to speak. You'll be lacking some Smite firepower, but you might get some decent punching power (specifically if you use Improved Natural Attack [unarmed strike], a method to grow large [a friendly caster using Enlarge Person on you or a potion of Enlarge Person], and get the Gauntlets of the Talon or a Monk's Belt) to compensate.
  
• Magic Items. You have the Miniatures Handbook, so that means one thing: if you can save for a Belt of Magnificence, you're set. They're effectively costlier than having all six stat-boosting items, but if you can get your hands on one, good for you. Recall that, as a Paladin, you'll be able to cast some boosting spells on yourself (namely Bull's Strength, Bear's Endurance, Owl's Wisdom and Eagle's Splendor) in case you need a much better boost. Except for Intelligence, you can do good with all stats so it's not like you'll lose much. Gauntlets of the Talon are also a great choice, if you can afford them (and get them, of course). You may also want to invest on a Longbow since you can use it as a Paladin, so you get ranged attacks when necessary (and those don't need a feat to use your Dex, which should be high)
  
• Race: Human. No other questions. You need the feat slot, you need no penalties, and humans get all the love, so it's human and nothing else.
  
• Spells: if you'll keep your Paladin spellcasting, you'll need some aid. You basically have the PHB, the PHB II and Complete Divine for your Paladin spells: from that, try and save a Mark of Doom spell for when you reach 2nd level. They're excellent on characters that make several attacks a round (*coughcoughHydrascoughcough*) and a dissuasive for people that do many offensive actions. Divine Sacrifice costs you HP but grants you more damage, and it's a 1st level spell so you can prepare a few of those. Try and see if you can get a lot of the 4th level spells, for you'll need quite a lot of those slots: Death Ward, Break Enchantment, Dispel Evil, Revenance, etc.

Evidently, if more choices open, and you gain access to the Hyperlink d20, you can go and use the choices offered by the other people. These ideas are meant to assist on your troubles with the build, tho.

[Soranar]

Well, as everybody else has been saying, you need to cut down your stats.

So try this.

Dump DEX , wear armor

-the decisive strike (PHB 2) class feature works in armor
-you're probaly only taking 1 level of monk anyway

Dump INT , play a human, you shouldn't need much INT anyway

Dump WIS , dump spellcasting completely (or play a sacred fist)

-problem is you can't trade it for anything good like free feats (Complete Champion) so you might want to put 14 there anyway, it also affects your stunning fists but restricting it to 14 ain't that bad, you don't need to max it since it doesn't affect your AC

Dump CHA , you play in eberron so you could play a robot paladin (RoE) and ignore CHA completely (you're in armor anyway so no monk problem)

most of the decent builds would have to dump 3 stats to work , 2 are easy choices imo (DEX and INT), others aren't (WIS and CHA)


BTW most of your best options are in unearthed arcana and Complete Champion, without both you're really making this difficult

and obvious build would be Monk 1/Pal 19 with decisive strike + fullplate and maybe spellcasting

-decisive strike also doubles your smite damage (not as good as tripling it but not as hard to pull off as a mounted charge)

-you should probably use a stick (quarterstaff) instead of your fists since it'll end up doing more damage (magic enhancements , twohanded and bypass magic damage reduction)

[FishAreWet]

Very difficult to do with those source books. Prestige Paladin is a near must. But if you're allowed Dragon Compendium and Five Nations the doors open up.

Serenity, as noted, will key your Paladin abilities to Wisdom. Then Argent Fist from Five Nations is basically a Paladin/Monk PrC. You get to keep Wis to AC in armor and can Flurry with any weapon. And everything you hold is Ki Strike. And you add your AF level to the DC of Stunning Fist when you Smite in the same attack. I've managed to get Stunning Fist DCs in the 50s.

Monk 2/Paladin 2/Psychic Warrior 16
with Serenity and Talashorta goes a long way too.

[Keld Denar]

Paladin2/Sorcerer4/Spellsword1/AbjChamp5/SacEx8

Standard Sorcadin build.

1 Improved Unarmed Strike
3 Practiced Spellcaster
6 Versatile Spellcaster
9 Superior Unarmed Strike
12 Snap Kick
15 Arcane Strike
18 Improved Natural Attack (Unarmed Strike)

Go unarmored, relying on Mage Armor and Shield to protect you. Hit things with your fists, using Snap Kick to simulate flurry, and deliver touch spells like Ghoul Touch or Vampiric Touch with your unarmed attacks. Eventually you can grow into a Mithril Chain Shirt or just stay unarmored.

Unfortunately, you can't take some of the cooler feats early (Superior Unarmed Strike, and Snap Kick esp) due to BAB requirements, but you might be able to get that waived by a DM do to the fact that you are a freakin Paladin/Monk (kinda).

[AslanCross]

I second the Argent Fist build. The divine armor will increase your AC by a lot.

[Evard]

Are you allowed to gestalt? That along with some of the feats would be pretty good :D

Also is homebrewed even allowed? There are some really good homebrew options for the paladin.

[Project_Cobalt]

Wowsers! I didn't think there would be so many different ways to do this sort of thing. I've been just thinking lately about cross-classing Monk with different classes and seeing how I can get it to work (the Monk by itself is just sort of dull to me). Monk/Ranger is the other one which I've been interested in lately.

I'll have to check out the Argent Fist, as our group is usually pretty forgiving of extra rules as long as everyone agrees. I'm not even really planning on playing the character, so much as just curious about how it would work out.

[Soranar]

For rangers, unless you're allowed variants that replace the combat style with something else (best by far is wildshape as then you can ignore Dex and Str) it's really not a great match. The feat (ascetic hunter) assumes you go monk 1-2 ranger x as it doesn't progress any of your ranger abilities.