Suggestions for Sword-and-Board dwarf warblade

[EpicEvokerElf]

Feats, PrCs, maneuvers, equipment... This is Pathfinder, but we're allowing most anything from 3.5 with little modification. I'm starting at first level, and my current selections are as follows:

Heaviest armor I can find
Heavy shield
Dwarven Waraxe

Stone Power feat (Power attack, but instead of damage I get 2 temporary hp per point penalty for a round)

Steel Wind (hit 2 enemies)
Stone Bones (DR 5/adamantine for 1 round following strike)
Charging Minotaur (charging bull rush deals 2d6+Str)
Punishing Stance (+1d6 damage on all attacks, -2 AC)

I'm heading for a rebuilt version of either Dwarven Defender or Deepstone Sentinel, but I'll probably remain straight Warblade until then (my DM allows them to use heavy armor). Any ideas would be great!

[Eldariel]

I'd consider some Tiger Claw Strikes for more raw damage increase. The X Animal Line is v. good for those and works well as a more "offensive stance"; the To Hit-bonus also makes Stone Power safer. Though frankly, you'd probably work better as a Crusader since Delayed Damage Pool synergises so well with Stone Power.

But if you wanna stick to Warblade, I'd get into Tiger Claw through Rabid Wolf Strike once you qualify (also, Sudden Leap is fairly good) and eventually Rabid Bear Strike. If you have Jump, consider some of those maneuvers too.


I assume the military commander-nature of White Raven doesn't interest you? Anyways, yeah, you're looking pretty good. Few Diamond Minds here or there may also be order, but beyond that there's little to add.

[The Glyphstone]

Tiger Claw benefits best from dual-wielding though.

I'd recommend focusing as much as possible on Diamond Mind -get the Nightmare Blade line and Insightful Strike/Greater Insightful Strike maneuvers, since you can't rely on the 2-handed power attack multipliers for damage. Stone Power combos pretty nicely with Emerald Razor for making touch attacks and getting temp. HP.

[FishAreWet]

Shield Spikes. Now you're dual wielding.

[Eldariel]

Tiger Claw benefits best from dual-wielding though.

That's not the whole school. The maneuvers I outlined are specifically great for single-handed style. Though Diamond Mind Concentration Strikes and such are arguably stronger, they come with the tasty To Hit-bonus.

Part of Tiger Claw is focused on TWF, but the school is wide enough to contain great one-hander maneuvers too.

[The Rabbler]

as was mentioned, crusader is a nice choice because of the damage pool and Devoted Spirit maneuvers. If you want to stick with warblade, however, then I'd suggest picking up Martial Study a few times (at higher levels) and grabbing martial stance when you hit level 15 (Immortal Fortitude is easily the best defensive stance I've ever seen). Top that off with some Diamond Mind maneuvers and a maxed concentration and you'll be doing some respectable damage.

Are maneuvers gained from Martial Study re-trainable through leveling up? I haven't looked at the RAW. if so, getting the feat earlier wouldn't drag you down that much.

also, you might want to look into getting a wrathful healing (I forget the book) weapon as soon as possible instead of using stone power; real healing is better than temporary HP and you don't take a penalty to hit (and I like the idea of being filled with positive energy by cutting someone in half). but items are a different conversation.

EDIT: whoops, guess items are part of the conversation. take a look at the ToB Discipline items, just because they're fun. If you're looking for more damage with your weapons, you might like strongarm bracers and sizing on your weapon (only a +5000 gp enhancement).

also, if you have access to any item property you want, you could go with a halfweight (UD) mithril fullplate of Nimbleness (MiC). It's fullplate with 0 ARP, +4 max dex, and is treated as light. slap on landing (MiC), quickness (MiC), and a crystal of alacrity and you're looking at a +10' bonus to movement and -40ft height for falling damage with heavy armor. It's a bit more costly than your average full plate of heavy fortification, but life's no fun when you're too safe.

finally: one belt of battle (MiC).

[The Rabbler]

also, for the small price of 7500 GP, you can combine the belt of battle with a belt of hidden pouches and make a Utility Belt

[TheDarkDM]

Grab Dwarven Armor Proficiency from Races of Stone to run around in Mithral Battle Plate. It's effective and thematically appropriate.

[The Rabbler]

Grab Dwarven Armor Proficiency from Races of Stone to run around in Mithral Battle Plate. It's effective and thematically appropriate.

not really effective. battle plate is only 1 AC higher than full plate; kind of a waste of a feat. though if you do want to do it, you might want to look at mountain plate. take what I said earlier about armor, add heavy armor optimization/greater, and you have a 10 AC armor with 0 ARP and +5 max dex.

[Eldariel]

You kids these days with your Exotic Armors... Want heavy armor? Get a Mechanus Gear [PlH]. Dwarves don't suffer any speed penalty in it (as per normal) and it's wearable with normal Heavy Armor Prof. +10 Armor, +0 Dex. Best you can get, and no need to waste a feat.

[Thrawn183]

I wouldn't go with the Stone Power, as Pathfinder doesn't let you PA much. At least, not at low levels, which is when the feat is best.

[EpicEvokerElf]

Whoah, thanks for the quick responses!

I've been worried about Stone Power with the PF nerfs to its mechanic; it's really not worth it anymore (barring Crusader delayed damage)? It seems to fit the build so well, but it doesn't look all that powerful anymore.

Battle Plate (unless adjusted for PF) is actually worse than full plate now; IIRC it has a max Dex of 0, reduces speed even for dwarves, and takes an extra feat, and as full plate now gives a +9 armor bonus, it's not worth the investment by any stretch. I'd try Mechanus Gear if I didn't actually have a Dex bonus, but I do (very good rolls); perhaps with all the enhancements The Rabbler suggested, at high levels, it'd be useful. For now, full plate will give me the same benefit, and I can make it myself without going and learning what Mechanus Gear armor is from some Inevitable craftsman ('cause there's no way a dwarf would have actually seen it before, realistically).

I'd like to do Crusader, but I'm not willing to give up Iron Heart (or Diamond Mind, I suppose). Martial Study maneuvers/stances are not retrainable, by RAW, but I think my DM might be persuaded to remove that clause as long as the replacement is within the same discipline. That's how I'm planning on getting my fill of DS maneuvers, and Thicket of Blades. Also, the homebrew crossbreed of Dwarven Defender and Deepstone Sentinel I'm working on (over in Homebrew; check it out and PEACH!) has DS maneuvers.

I admit, I haven't looked at Tiger Claw (I also assumed it was all TWF); I'll check out the maneuvers you mentioned.

Anybody have feat advice? Are Armor Specialization and Shield Focus (PHII) worth it? Do I even bother with Weapon Focus (I can retrain it with Weapon Mastery, as a warblade, but I probably wouldn't...)? Martial Study and Martial Stance might end up being my bread-and-butter feats, since feats come every odd level in PF and I'll have to burn them somehow.

What is a Belt of Battle?

[Ernir]

Anybody have feat advice? Are Armor Specialization and Shield Focus (PHII) worth it? Do I even bother with Weapon Focus (I can retrain it with Weapon Mastery, as a warblade, but I probably wouldn't...)? Martial Study and Martial Stance might end up being my bread-and-butter feats, since feats come every odd level in PF and I'll have to burn them somehow.

The most general Feat advice I can offer... feats that give you new options tend to be better than those that "only" give you straight, numerical bonuses. So the question I suggest you ask yourself is: What do you want to do? You have an axe, you have a shield, how do you want to kill things with them?

What is a Belt of Battle?

A magic item from the Magic Item Compendium, page 73. Very handy. Gives a passive bonus to initiative, and extra actions a few times a day. 12k.

[Hurlbut]

Battle Plate (unless adjusted for PF) is actually worse than full plate now; IIRC it has a max Dex of 0, reduces speed even for dwarves, and takes an extra feat, and as full plate now gives a +9 armor bonus, it's not worth the investment by any stretch. I'd try Mechanus Gear if I didn't actually have a Dex bonus, but I do (very good rolls); perhaps with all the enhancements The Rabbler suggested, at high levels, it'd be useful. For now, full plate will give me the same benefit, and I can make it myself without going and learning what Mechanus Gear armor is from some Inevitable craftsman ('cause there's no way a dwarf would have actually seen it before, realistically).

Actually all medium and heavy armors when converted to Pathfinder gain +1 AB
Anyhow if you want a dwarven armor, just get a dwarven crafted armor. If your character has a nice Dex, get Field Plate from Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting book and add +1 ab (since it is PRE-Pathfinder Ruleset).

[Eldariel]

I've been worried about Stone Power with the PF nerfs to its mechanic; it's really not worth it anymore (barring Crusader delayed damage)? It seems to fit the build so well, but it doesn't look all that powerful anymore.

Depends. If you play it as printed in ToB, it's fine. If you play it like PA from Pathfinder, it's trash.

Battle Plate (unless adjusted for PF) is actually worse than full plate now; IIRC it has a max Dex of 0, reduces speed even for dwarves, and takes an extra feat, and as full plate now gives a +9 armor bonus, it's not worth the investment by any stretch. I'd try Mechanus Gear if I didn't actually have a Dex bonus, but I do (very good rolls); perhaps with all the enhancements The Rabbler suggested, at high levels, it'd be useful. For now, full plate will give me the same benefit, and I can make it myself without going and learning what Mechanus Gear armor is from some Inevitable craftsman ('cause there's no way a dwarf would have actually seen it before, realistically).

Meh, Dwarves are friggin' craftsmen/engineers; Mechanus Gear feels like just the kinda thing they'd be able to come up with. Also, it's got +1 more armor than Fullplate with full Dex (Fullplate maxes out at +9 Armor +1 Dex, Mechanus Gear should be at +11 Armor). Mithril Mechanus Gear if you have Dex to burn, and go to town!

I'd like to do Crusader, but I'm not willing to give up Iron Heart (or Diamond Mind, I suppose). Martial Study maneuvers/stances are not retrainable, by RAW, but I think my DM might be persuaded to remove that clause as long as the replacement is within the same discipline. That's how I'm planning on getting my fill of DS maneuvers, and Thicket of Blades. Also, the homebrew crossbreed of Dwarven Defender and Deepstone Sentinel I'm working on (over in Homebrew; check it out and PEACH!) has DS maneuvers.

Diamond Mind has some wonderful Strikes so if you stay Warblade, I'd probably frankly prioritise it. For a one-weapon one-hander, Diamond Mind is a godsend.

I admit, I haven't looked at Tiger Claw (I also assumed it was all TWF); I'll check out the maneuvers you mentioned.

I hadn't either until I made a two-hander/archer that needed Tiger Claw to qualify; turns out Rabid Wolf Strike is awesome (though I use it with Power Attack) and Rabid Bear Strike more-of-the-same. And Sudden Leap is as useful as ever and some of the stances are quite nice. And the Jump-maneuvers can kick butt.

Anybody have feat advice? Are Armor Specialization and Shield Focus (PHII) worth it? Do I even bother with Weapon Focus (I can retrain it with Weapon Mastery, as a warblade, but I probably wouldn't...)? Martial Study and Martial Stance might end up being my bread-and-butter feats, since feats come every odd level in PF and I'll have to burn them somehow.

Armor Specialization isn't worth it. Shield Specialization can be worth it as it's a prerequisite for Shield Ward, which really makes Shields worth using. It may also be worth looking into Complete Warrior's Shield Slam-feat; it can be quite fun though with maneuvers you might not need it.

Weapon Focus-line seems wholly unimpressive; it's got 6 feats two out of which are worth a feat (Melee Weapon Mastery and Weapon Supremacy). You don't have too many feats so think carefully. You may want to consider Improved Trip-line up to Knock-Down for some literal smackdown, if interested.

Robilar's Gambit for the appropriate level is nearly a must and some of the CWar Tacticals are still consideration-worthy, as are the ToB tacticals (Stormguard Warrior is nice, for example). Btw, out of Devoted Spirit, you must pick up Shield Block & eventual Shield Counter. Those two maneuvers alone fix all the problems with Shields.

What is a Belt of Battle?

Item from Magic Item Compendium; boosts your Initiative and gains extra actions. 3 charges per day, burn 1 for a move action, 2 for a standard action and all 3 for a full-round action (activating it is a swift action). Very useful with the "Oh ****!"-function.

[EpicEvokerElf]

I'm not interested in shield bash, certainly, nor in trying to pull tripping cheese (harder in PF anyway). I'm contemplating bull rush, but it's too "THOG SMASH" for this particular dwarf (he's a smith by trade, and a very calm, contemplative character). I really like the idea of being a solid bastion of defense, guarding the squishier members of my party (including a sociopathic adolescent elf psion who considers me a beast of burden), and of being able to take anything by enemies can dish without flinching (before cleaving their heads from their shoulders, naturally).

I agree, passive bonuses are boring; on the other hand, maneuvers are plenty spicy. What options are out there for this fellow?

EDIT: Goodness, two more replies while I was posting!

[EpicEvokerElf]

Stand Still (XPH) sounds fun... Robilar's Gambit is a given, and thanks for bringing Shield Ward to my attention.

I'll talk to my DM to make sure he's up to speed on converting armors; if so, I can think up an excuse to invent Mechanus Gear ASAP.

What are the best DM strikes, and how would you suggest working them out since Concentration was removed in PF?

EDIT: Also, Stormguard Warrior looks pretty darn nice; I'm annoyed that Shards of Granite is a) not that great and b) not usable with my waraxe.

[Hurlbut]

Seriously, don't forgot to have your armor be dwarven crafted, bonus if you get it be adamantine, for all extra hitpoint goodness that any sunder attempt have to go through

[EpicEvokerElf]

I make all my gear myself, so it won't be a problem once I've got the cash for dwarvencraft.

Also, linky to the homebrew PrC just in case anybody's feeling especially charitable.

[Hurlbut]

I make all my gear myself, so it won't be a problem once I've got the cash for dwarvencraft.

Also, linky to the homebrew PrC just in case anybody's feeling especially charitable.

Actually you forgot to indicate how much of the PrC's levels count as martial initiator levels for one of the martial initiator class the PrC character has levels in.

[HunterOfJello]

Best guide I've seen for warblades on the internet so far is the Tome of Battle for Dummies guide.

If you're interested in using a controller build like many optimizers than a tuom (A&EG), spiked chain or kusari-gama (3.5 DMG) would be very useful. They're each weapons that can be used to attack enemies at 5ft and 10ft.


Stone Power as a feat is terrible for a warblade. Temporary hit points are very unreliable and having a maximum of 10 temporary hp will mean the benefits will be non-existant after lvl 5 or so.

Stone Bones is also pretty unreliable. I would suggest Moment of Perfect Mind or Leading the Attack above it. Moment of Perfect Mind is very useful to keep on the backburner and then bust out when you know you're going to be dealing with a spellcaster or psionic in the near future. Leading the Attack will just have most of the players in your group like you more. Also, White Raven Tactics, one of the best maneuvers and abilities in the game, requires 1 White Raven maneuver to obtain as a maneuver or use through the Crown of the White Ravens.


As far as stances go, the best lvl 1 stance for non-kukri wielding Warblades is definitely Hunter's Sense. If you don't want to take a Tiger Claw maneuver to allow you access to the stance, then I would suggest Stance of Clarity.

The big difference between Stance of Clarity and Punishing Stance is that the first is useful against tough enemies and the second is useful against weak enemies. All Punishing Stance will help with is turning a 10 minute fight against a group of weak enemies into a 6 minute fight against a group of weak enemies.

Besides, whatever bonus AC you're getting from your shield will have been lost by being in punishing stance in the first place. You'd be better off jus using a 2 hander. Think about the math this way:

Large Shield + Longsword = +2 AC , 1d8+str mod damage
Large Shield + Longsword + Punishing Stance = +0 AC , 1d8+1d6+ str mod damage

however
Greatsword = +0 AC , 2d6+ (1.5*str mod) damage



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*edit*

gotta go eat, more to come

[CyMage]

I realise that most people consider the Warblade just an upgraded Fighter, but there are a few minor differences that people do forget. Warblades do not have the heavy armor proficiency. Light and medium only.

[HunterOfJello]

I realise that most people consider the Warblade just an upgraded Fighter, but there are a few minor differences that people do forget. Warblades do not have the heavy armor proficiency. Light and medium only.

Yeah. A much better explanation is that a Warblade is an upgraded Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian hyrbid.

[JaronK]

Get Shield Charge and Shield Slam, along with Improved Trip. Now when you charge and hit you beat the snot out of what you hit.

And if you want heavy armor, dip two levels in Crusader. Grab Shield Block while you're at it.

JaronK

[Leon]

Feats, PrCs, maneuvers, equipment... This is Pathfinder, but we're allowing most anything from 3.5 with little modification. I'm starting at first level, and my current selections are as follows:

Heaviest armor I can find
Heavy shield
Dwarven Waraxe

By the average gold at 1st for a Warblade your best bet would be a large Wood shield, Scale mail and a Waraxe for 87 gold. Upgrade to breastplate as soon as you can and start the saving fund for Magic Fullplate about the same time

Improved Shield Bash is a feat chain starter that you may want to consider - is needed for the slam line of feats, also opens up the "TWF with Shield feat" which name i cant recall

I realise that most people consider the Warblade just an upgraded Fighter, but there are a few minor differences that people do forget. Warblades do not have the heavy armor proficiency. Light and medium only.

my DM allows them to use heavy armor). Any ideas would be great!

[Eldariel]

What are the best DM strikes, and how would you suggest working them out since Concentration was removed in PF?

I'd either derive them off Martial Lore or just ask DM to give back Concentration.

[Person_Man]

Guide to Shields

JaronK is correct that one of the best shield combos is Shield Bash + Shield Slam + Shield Charge for a free Trip and Daze attack when you Charge. However, unless your DM is feeling charitable you can't Pounce with it, so it quickly becomes useless at higher levels.

At mid-high levels, any decent shield combo requires wants Divine Shield, which adds your Cha bonus to your shield bonus. This in turn opens up many other options. But it requires Turn/Rebuke Undead.

So my suggestions is Cleric/Crusader/Ruby Knight Vindicator. This will give you a good mix of high AC, DR, maneuvers, stances, and spells. This also allows you to drop Stone Power in favor of Minor Shapeshift (Complete Arcane - As long as you have any Polymorph spell of 4th level or higher memorized, you can spend a Swift Action to give yourself temporary hit points equal to your Hit Dice). It's superior to Stone power at higher levels, unless you use you Swift Action a lot (a distinct possibility). Alternatively, you can just buy a Bodyfeeder weapon. Put it on any *4 weapon and buy a Bag of Tricks. Before combat Coup de Grace an animal with Power Attack maxed out, and you get massive temporary hit points for 10 minutes.

[marjan]

At mid-high levels, any decent shield combo requires wants Divine Shield, which adds your Cha bonus to your shield bonus. This in turn opens up many other options. But it requires Turn/Rebuke Undead.

For Warblade (especially since he is dwarf), Law Devotion would be much better choice (cha is most likely extremely dumped stat), possibly with a dip in a some class with Turn Undead.

[Master_Rahl22]

I'll second that you should focus on Diamond Mind, and that Tiger Claw has some really awesome stuff that's independent of what weapon you're wielding. The Jump maneuvers all add lots of extra damage, and some have attack bonuses or count the target as flat-footed against the attack.

You might also consider going with Crusader and using your Martial Study/Martial Stance feats for the Iron Heart/Diamond Mind stuff though, since Crusader class features are very well suited for tanking. Just another perspective.

[EpicEvokerElf]

The problem with the Tiger Claw strikes—leaping into combat, swinging wildly, foaming at the mouth—is that this character would never do that. Mechanically nice though they may be, I'm going to discount them altogether. I may ask my DM if he'll let me trade TC (and perhaps White Raven) for Devoted Spirit, but I doubt it'll happen.

Cleric/Crusader/RKV is totally out of the question; not only have I already begun play, but we've already got a cleric (and I'm kind of sick of playing casters). I'm also going to say "no thanks" to the various chain weapons that make tripper builds so deadly; not only have they been nerfed in PF, but so has tripping in general (split into 2 feats). I also just don't want to open that can of worms, as it'll piss off my party.

It's looking like I'll be focusing on IH, DM, and the occasional SD maneuvers mostly (with as many DS as I can get). I think Concentration might either be replaced with Perception (not my first choice) or [level + 3 + CON] (essentially unchanged, but doesn't cost skill points).

Shield Slam and its friends sound nifty; I'll dig out CWar and check them out.

How does Law Devotion relate to Divine Shield, exactly?

Thanks again for all the feedback!