Spiked-chain trippy nonsense.

[TroubleBrewing]

I'm building a spiked chain tripper. (just in case you missed the title.)

It's a 20th level battle-royal style melee, in a campaign with no psionic characters, no tome of battle, but every other 3.5 resource. 32 point-buy, as well.

So far, I've got a Lolth-Touched (MMIV) Half-Minotaur (DM313) with (at 3rd level so far) stats as follows: 28, 12, 22, 8, 12, 10.

I want to work in the "Dungeon-crasher" variant (Dungeonscape), as well as the Whirling Frenzy variant (UA), but I'm not sure how to put all of this together. Plus, are there any prestige classes that enhance the spiked chain abilities? (I know about exotic weapon master, but I'm reeeeaaallly trying to avoid it. From what I understand, it's sub-optimal. If I'm wrong, please correct me on this.)

[Tinydwarfman]

I'm building a spiked chain tripper. (just in case you missed the title.)

It's a 20th level battle-royal style melee, in a campaign with no psionic characters, no tome of battle, but every other 3.5 resource. 32 point-buy, as well.

So far, I've got a Lolth-Touched (MMIV) Half-Minotaur (DM313) with (at 3rd level so far) stats as follows: 28, 12, 22, 8, 12, 10.

I want to work in the "Dungeon-crasher" variant (Dungeonscape), as well as the Whirling Frenzy variant (UA), but I'm not sure how to put all of this together. Plus, are there any prestige classes that enhance the spiked chain abilities? (I know about exotic weapon master, but I'm reeeeaaallly trying to avoid it. From what I understand, it's sub-optimal. If I'm wrong, please correct me on this.)

Are you really set on being a melee tripper? A 20th level arena will be dominated (sometimes literally) by casters. A melee fighter won't even be able to touch a caster with the amount of optimization you are using.

[TroubleBrewing]

Right, forgot to mention: it's a zero-caster arena. That isn't to say that no magic is allowed: classes that grant spells/day, spells known, or invocations are off-limits.

(Backstory: a friend and I were sitting around wondering who would murder who in an arena, one thing led to another, and here we stand.)

[*.*.*.*]

Right, forgot to mention: it's a zero-caster arena. That isn't to say that no magic is allowed: classes that grant spells/day, spells known, or invocations are off-limits.

(Backstory: a friend and I were sitting around wondering who would murder who in an arena, one thing led to another, and here we stand.)

Ubercharging is probably better than tripping

But I've been wrong before

[Dusk Eclipse]

Question, how are you planing on combining dungeon crasher and triping? either way if you go tripping I suggest becoming a AoO machine, get as many reach extenders as you can (Willing deformity tall, abberant reach, etc) pump your dex to fuel you AoO and get Robilar's gambit, they try to hit you? they AaO'ed in the face. Also I might suggest being a goliath barbarian to get mountain rage ACF and get another increase in size when you rage.

Hope that helps

[Tinydwarfman]

Ubercharging is probably better than tripping

But I've been wrong before

A well built tripper will lockdown the ubercharger. Just never become flat footed and you are set.

[TroubleBrewing]

Question, how are you planing on combining dungeon crasher and triping?

It works surprisingly well. The bull rush attempt knocks them back 10 ft, then when they try to stand from prone, I AoO them, and knock them down again. It allows me to set off a chain of "sit down, you're rockin' the boat" lines.

[Claudius Maximus]

AoO's take place before the action that provokes them, so you can't trip someone attempting to stand up, since they're already prone when you get that attack. On the bright side, you get +4 to hit them on standing AoO's.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

You don't really need to keep the enemy from standing up anyway. You just normal AoO the enemy for standing up and then trip once they try to approach you again.

I assume incarnum is nixed as well, but what might instead be an issue for you is a character with UMD+wands+scrolls replicating a wizard. If this is allowed I'd at least spend some WBL on a rod of cancellation (or three), winged boots, and maybe a third eye conceal.

[TroubleBrewing]

Spells in general are frowned upon. We had a guy suggest a scroll-using rogue, but we nixed it. The whole point of this arena is to play a whole bunch of optimized martial builds and variants against each other.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Flying is a must IMO I personally like wings of flying but you might consider them a bit expensive (70 something K IIRC).

Also a sourece of haste is a great option, I believe there was a ring of continous haste somewhere.

[Eldariel]

Charger sucks without PA (though Mounted Charger is fairly solid still; 3x damage is solid) - and in arena use, it's almost always denied - lockdown is a start but what you really want is:
- Elusive Target: With PA out of the picture, you won't be taking more than ~50-70 points of damage per hit.
- Starmantle Cloak: Halve that.
- Generic DR Item: Cut half of that out too.
- Energy Resistances of ~10 each: '{Scrubbed}
- True Neutral Alignment: Yeah.

I'd have access to both, charging capabilities and lockdown. I'd use Standstill-based Lockdown since Tripping has counters. Standstill doesn't outside +50 Reflex-save.

Improve your reach (Willing Deformity: Tall [HoH] and Aberrant Blood + Inhuman Reach [LoM]); it'll at least force opponent to invest enough in Tumble to get past you. Pity ToB is banned, otherwise you'd actually have a chance of locking people down. Anyways, yeah, Shock Trooper+Knockback is the basis of a Dungeoncrasher.

Pick natural wings from Dragonborn or something and fly crashing your oppo to ground. If you win the opposed checks, at any rate. Pack Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit. Can't suggest that enough. Being able to hit opponent back twice for each time he hits you makes for some truly unfair exchanges.


Boots of Speed, Belt of Battle, Amulet of Retribution, etc. - generic good 20 items and you're good to go. Oh, definitely pack Steadfast Boots for +4 vs. all the combat maneuvers; those are huge.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Something to chew on: How will you counter archers? DR is a good start, but if they have some faster form of flight than you do you're pretty boned without some other contingency.

[deuxhero]

Right, forgot to mention: it's a zero-caster arena. That isn't to say that no magic is allowed: classes that grant spells/day, spells known, or invocations are off-limits.

Spelless Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many forms is still going to dominate you (possibly literally).


You could be Magic Blooded (Dragon something LA+0 -2 wis +2 cha template) half fey 2 with the Magic in the Blood (Feat from some FR book, allows use of racial SLAs 3 times as much) and go crazy pseudo caster as SLAs aren't banned (Or go binder actually, everyone of their things falls into the rules allowed). Such a setup is typically combined with Phrenic as well, but that is banned.

[*.*.*.*]

Spelless Wildshape Ranger/Master of Many forms is still going to dominate you (possibly literally).


You could be Magic Blooded (Dragon something LA+0 -2 wis +2 cha template) half fey 2 with the Magic in the Blood (Feat from some FR book, allows use of racial SLAs 3 times as much) and go crazy pseudo caster as SLAs aren't banned (Or go binder actually, everyone of their things falls into the rules allowed). Such a setup is typically combined with Phrenic as well, but that is banned.

He should go MOMF

Divine Minion 1/MOMF10/Nature's warriorX/fist of the forest X
or
Divine Minion(bought off) /MOMF10/Planar shepard10

[marjan]

A well built tripper will lockdown the ubercharger. Just never become flat footed and you are set.

Combat reflexes will solve that. Total concealment may give you trouble though. Also against uberchargers Standstill + Hold The Line would be better. It's more likely that enemy will fail reflex save than strength check. He charges, you stop him, on your turn you hit him and move away and then repeat.

[Tinydwarfman]

Combat reflexes will solve that. Total concealment may give you trouble though. Also against uberchargers Standstill + Hold The Line would be better. It's more likely that enemy will fail reflex save than strength check. He charges, you stop him, on your turn you hit him and move away and then repeat.

Ironically, the charger's biggest advantage is stealth, and then charging from 500' away. I would suggest getting foresight somehow, that's the only thing I can think of that will prevent you from being surprised.

[marjan]

Ironically, the charger's biggest advantage is stealth, and then charging from 500' away.

Charging will give you hefty penalties to hide and move silently, so ranks in spot and listen should be able to counter that tactic. And how exactly do you get 250' speed for that charge?

I would suggest getting foresight somehow, that's the only thing I can think of that will prevent you from being surprised.

As Combat Reflexes allows to to make AoOs while flat-footed, it's not necessary. The only thing to worry about is total cover and concealment.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Some suggestions:

Why bother choosing between Charge and Trip when you can do both?

Get Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper. That's at least an extra 60 damage per hit. And consider how many flippin' hits you're gonna be dishing out per turn. Maybe get a one-level dip in Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian for Pounce on top of that.

So, you charge to like 20 feet and smack him for a full attack. Then he tries to move, and you trip then attack him again. Then he tries to hit you, and you get to smack him YET AGAIN. And all your Power Attack bonuses to damage are still in effect, so that's +60 damage per hit. Now, how many times have you hit him so far?

Here's another cute trick: Pyrokeneticist. It's not a caster, it doesn't cast spells. You only want a one-level dip. Why? Flame Lash. Because you can Power Attack with it, it has stupidly huge reach, and everything is a touch attack.

[*.*.*.*]

Or you could go MOMF and eat them as a dragon

[Soranar]

yeah MOMF will become something so big it'll become impossible to trip or bullrush (and it'll probably have more reach than anything else)

[Tinydwarfman]

Charging will give you hefty penalties to hide and move silently, so ranks in spot and listen should be able to counter that tactic. And how exactly do you get 250' speed for that charge?



As Combat Reflexes allows to to make AoOs while flat-footed, it's not necessary. The only thing to worry about is total cover and concealment.

Sorry, make that more like 300ft. There are a few ways of getting cheetah charges, but most of them are restricted to druids and wildshapers. You don't need to be silent after you initiate the charge, just ranks in hide before it. You get a surprise round, in which I thought you couldn't make AoO's, but apparently you can.

[Seffbasilisk]

Seeing as you're stressing the mundane, if you're going for reach and AoO's, I'm assuming that you're mostly going to be focusing on controlling the area. If psionics are allowed, I'd get Boots of Skating (keep your feet off the grond), and scatter caltrops. Tah dah! No more tumbling.

[Soranar]

Seeing as you're stressing the mundane, if you're going for reach and AoO's, I'm assuming that you're mostly going to be focusing on controlling the area. If psionics are allowed, I'd get Boots of Skating (keep your feet off the grond), and scatter caltrops. Tah dah! No more tumbling.

The fourth line of his post says no psionic, wasn't a long read...

[*.*.*.*]

yeah MOMF will become something so big it'll become impossible to trip or bullrush (and it'll probably have more reach than anything else)

See^
{Scrubbed}

[Seffbasilisk]

My apologies for substituting the simplest solution. I fell into the trap of reading a post over and over again until details go missing.

If you don't have to move, you can simply scatter caltrops willy-nilly. If you've a chance to prepare a battlefield, there are easier ways to create (more permanent) difficult terrain.

[Milskidasith]

Why not go for a hulking hurler build? I'm not sure how much they break the rules (I haven't ever checked the specifics of the build), but throwing the planet you are on at your opponents generally works out pretty well.

[Killer Angel]

Right, forgot to mention: it's a zero-caster arena. That isn't to say that no magic is allowed: classes that grant spells/day, spells known, or invocations are off-limits.

Good idea, but I see the chance for UMD and scrolls to win the day.

[TroubleBrewing]

While all of the various build suggestions are very helpful, and it's awesome that so many people are willing to put their two cents into this, it isn't exactly what I asked for. If I wanted to work in Hulking Hurler, or Master of Many Forms, I would. I don't want them here; they are all extremely strong choices, but I just don't want to turn into a dragon or throw planets. I want to trip people to death.

I've been reworking, and I've come up with a Goliath Lolth-Touched Half-Minotaur build that looks a little something like Barb2/Fight6/Exotic Weapon Master 1/War Hulk 8.

I'm thinking of cutting the War Hulk levels: the extra strength is nice, but frankly, I've got 40 base strength. With gear and tomes, I'll be in the 50's easy. After a certain point, it becomes not worth the 8 levels for 16 strength. Thoughts?

[Eldariel]

Get Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper. That's at least an extra 60 damage per hit. And consider how many flippin' hits you're gonna be dishing out per turn. Maybe get a one-level dip in Lion Spirit Totem Barbarian for Pounce on top of that.

So, you charge to like 20 feet and smack him for a full attack. Then he tries to move, and you trip then attack him again. Then he tries to hit you, and you get to smack him YET AGAIN. And all your Power Attack bonuses to damage are still in effect, so that's +60 damage per hit. Now, how many times have you hit him so far?

Arena: Everyone has Elusive Target. Don't bother focusing on Power Attack.