Soulbow with a bow?

[2xMachina]

I'm wondering. Can a Soulbow use a bow to shoot the Mind Arrows with? (To gain more enchantment bonuses).

It'll be pretty nice if you can. +1 +9 bow enchantment +3 arrow enchantment.

[FishAreWet]

No. For the same reason you can't hold a shortsword in your other hand and apply it's bonuses to your mindblade.

[Greenish]

I think you technically could, since the class ability explicitly creates arrows. The text:

Mind Arrow (Su): As a free action, you can create a semisolid arrow composed of psychic energy distilled from your mind. If your base attack bonus is high enough to grant you multiple attacks, you can create multiple mind arrows as part of an attack. You must have one hand free to create and project a mind arrow.

The bolt is identical in all ways (except visually) to an arrow shot from a composite longbow.

[Eldonauran]

You must have one hand free to create and project a mind arrow.

Its the hand that projects the arrow, not the bow. I, personally, would allow it to gain the enhancement bonus from the bow, but not the ranged abilities. I would not, however, let the bonuses stack.

[2xMachina]

Would be fun if you didn't have to project it.

I conjure magic arrows to use with my magic bow!

EDIT: It does not say you NEED to project with it. So, why can't we conjure, and use as normal magic arrows.

[Greenish]

Its the hand that projects the arrow, not the bow. I, personally, would allow it to gain the enhancement bonus from the bow, but not the ranged abilities. I would not, however, let the bonuses stack.

It doesn't say you have to project the arrow: you could conceivably just create it and shoot it with an ordinary bow. It does go against the intention of the class though.

[Edit]:

Would be fun if you didn't have to project it.

I conjure magic arrows to use with my magic bow!

If that's your aim (hehe), take a look at this. Much less questionable, allows you to pick some other class and is mechanically quite powerful.

[Eldonauran]

It doesn't say you have to project the arrow: you could conceivably just create it and shoot it with an ordinary bow. It does go against the intention of the class though.

True, you don't have to project it, which is why I said I would allow someone to shoot the mind arrow with a bow. However, since it doesn't say you can use other methods of delivery, it would have to determine that RAW, you can not use a bow.

[Greenish]

True, you don't have to project it, which is why I said I would allow someone to shoot the mind arrow with a bow. However, since it doesn't say you can use other methods of delivery, it would have to determine that RAW, you can not use a bow.

By RAW, bows use arrows. Mind Arrow explicitly creates an arrow. ("Mind Arrow (Su): As a free action, you can create a semisolid arrow".) Thus, you can use it as ammunition for bows by RAW.

There are also rules on both the arrows and the bow having enchantments: the highest base enchantment bonus applies, along with all the special enchantments on both the bow and the arrow.

[Ponce]

Maybe you are SUPPOSED to do this to make the class less worthless?

[Kylarra]

Maybe you are SUPPOSED to do this to make the class less worthless?

Soulbow isn't a worthless class...

[Dusk Eclipse]

Soulbow isn't a worthless class...

Maybe he refers to the base class needed to enter soulbow?

[Kylarra]

Maybe he refers to the base class needed to enter soulbow?

Doubtfully.

[Optimystik]

Maybe you are SUPPOSED to do this to make the class less worthless?

Soulbow is an "Up 2 Tiers" PrC.

[Tinydwarfman]

Soulbow is an "Up 2 Tiers" PrC.

Even with it's up 2 tiers, it's still only tier 4, not that amazing. The class is great and well designed, but all in all soulbows aren't that powerful.

[Person_Man]

I allow it. No reason to nerf the Soulbow compared to other archer builds.

[Kylarra]

Even with it's up 2 tiers, it's still only tier 4, not that amazing. The class is great and well designed, but all in all soulbows aren't that powerful.

"Tier 4" is still a far cry from "worthless" unless you are, as some are wont to do, using tier 1 as the baseline.

[Mongoose87]

I allow it. No reason to nerf the Soulbow compared to other archer builds.

You say that as though archer builds are worthwhile.

[Optimystik]

Even with it's up 2 tiers, it's still only tier 4, not that amazing. The class is great and well designed, but all in all soulbows aren't that powerful.

There's more to classes than sheer power. Elegance is also a factor. And among the archer classes (already a weak group) Soulbow shines due to SADness, an abundance of bonus feats, and lack of gear dependency.

Which incidentally makes them quite nice with VoP as well.

[Person_Man]

You say that as though archer builds are worthwhile.

In general, I agree with your sentiment. But I think that the Soulbow, Cleric Archer, Incarnate Archer, Pathfinder Arcane Archer, and similar archer builds are worthwhile. The main problem with archer builds is that they require numerous feats (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Greater Manyshot) to do a very boring task (move and fire, with few or no special attacks) every round of every combat. Add full casting/psionics/etc to the mix, and they become a reasonable (although rarely optimal) option, especially if you happen to be playing in a "beat the clock" scenario where you can't rest and restore your resources very often.

[Lycanthromancer]

Add full casting/psionics/etc to the mix, and they become a reasonable (although rarely optimal) option, especially if you happen to be playing in a "beat the clock" scenario where you can't rest and restore your resources very often.

On this note, psychic warriors make good archers, and if you allow the Soulbound Weapon variant to qualify for soulbow, you can get some very nice abilities to play with (especially if you find a way to get nearly full manifesting and full soulbow progression).

[Tinydwarfman]

I was not saying that the soulbow is worthless, or a bad class at all. I was simply saying that it's only tier four, so you won't be making it too powerful by buffing it slightly.

[Kylarra]

I don't think anyone was claiming it was too powerful. The poster Optimystik and I were responding to was calling it worthless.

[Tinydwarfman]

I don't think anyone was claiming it was too powerful. The poster Optimystik and I were responding to was calling it worthless.

Um, you were both quoting me, and Eldonauran was saying that he would forbid it, so I was saying that the class isn't that strong anyway. Now that I re-read his post I think he might ban it just because it goes against the intent of the class though, so it may have been for naught...

[Kylarra]

Um, you were both quoting me, and Eldonauran was saying that he would forbid it, so I was saying that the class isn't that strong anyway. Now that I re-read his post I think he might ban it just because it goes against the intent of the class though, so it may have been for naught...

I quoted you because you were responding to Optimystik who was responding to someone calling it worthless.

My point was that unless you were equating Tier 4 with worthless, your post doesn't rebut Optimystik's claim that Soulbow isn't worthless.

As intent is so often lost across the internet, I hope that clarifies why I said the things I said.

[Tinydwarfman]

I quoted you because you were responding to Optimystik who was responding to someone calling it worthless.

My point was that unless you were equating Tier 4 with worthless, your post doesn't rebut Optimystik's claim that Soulbow isn't worthless.

As intent is so often lost across the internet, I hope that clarifies why I said the things I said.

I wasn't calling it worthless, I was just saying that classes aren't just ranked by the PrC tier, but their base as well. I know Optimystik knows the PrC tier system well, but to outsiders they may equate +2 with the power of Incantatrix and Shadowcraft Mage, two other +2 PrC's. It still needs a little boost in my opinion, preferably from a limited power progression.

[Flickerdart]

The main problem with archer builds is that they require numerous feats (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Manyshot, Greater Manyshot) to do a very boring task (move and fire, with few or no special attacks) every round of every combat.

And then suddenly, out of nowhere, demons! No problem, you say, and pull out some Demonslaying arrows you were sitting on. The demons have Fire Giant thralls? Good thing you packed some Cold arrows. The cheapness of ammunition means that an archer has many more options than melee when it comes to toys.

[Optimystik]

Reposting a build I had made before:

Soulknife 3 (both ACFs)/Psywar 2/Soulbow 10 (Level 15)

You can take both Soulknife ACFs in Mind's Eye. The first trades Wild Talent for Hidden Talent, giving you a free power. The second trades psychic strike for bonus feats.

At level 15, you will have 8 bonus feats with this build - exactly the same number as a Fighter 15. That should be enough for any archer.

There's also builds that go with Cobra Strike Monk instead of Psywar (for Wis to AC) or Ranger to go into Cragtop Archer.

[Ponce]

Sure, it is an "Up-2-Tiers" PRC. That's because it is because it is using Soulknife as the baseline. That doesn't make it worth while, and it certainly doesn't mean it was amazingly well-written. To me, all this class boils down to is "Wis to Damage." The suggestion of using it in conjunction with, say, a Splitting longbow is much more interesting, however. I just don't see how it is a good PrC compared to something like a Swift Hunter build or any number of magical archer gish builds. Do people just like it because they loved the soulknife concept but want it on something closer to a decent class?

And, yeah, you're still an archer. WotC still hates you.

[Optimystik]

To me, all this class boils down to is "Wis to Damage."

There's a bit more to it than that. Not many archer PrCs get 5 bonus feats in 10 levels, and archery is a very feat-hungry path. Close Combat Shot is an excellent ability - no AoOs while shooting in melee. Phase Arrow ignores cover and concealment, and while it does cost a full attack action, its still better than a full-round action, and more open to tricks. Then you've got Wis to attack (Zen Archery) and damage, resulting in SADness - combine with a class that grants Wis to AC, and all you ever need are Wis and Con. And RAW, your arrows stay unaffected by antimagic, keeping all their enhancements.

So it's not as good as a magical archer gish build - so what? It's not supposed to be. Obviously a caster is going to beat this, but not everyone wants to play them all the time.

[Ponce]

I really doubt the usefulness of Phase Arrow. Assuming they have 50% concealment and/or anything less than total cover, you are still likely better off just doing a full attack, especially with rapid shot or what have you. You will probably hit at least once, and likely more than once, especially with the number of attacks you receive at that level. If they have Total Cover, you still need some method to be able to see where they are, which is difficult if they are behind a wall or other barrier. You would, in most cases, need Blindsense or a similar ability, which is going to be tough given that you've invested 13 levels in this class. Even assuming the best conditions (an opponent who ducks behind a tree or tower shield or something) it is still just one archery attack.

The SADness of the class isn't that useful. Most archers only care about dex anyway (which adds to attack and AC by default), and use some other non-attribute-dependent damage method. They're already SAD (Aside from CON, of course). You've just moved it to Wisdom, which... eh... I guess I'd rank them equally useful for archery builds? Hard to say. Actually, no, Dex is more useful. All those archery feats you want to buy require dexterity, not wisdom. You're not SAD, even with your bonus features/feats moving everything to Wis.

The bonus feats ARE nice, but again, there are many other archery PrCs out there that give feats and bonus damage that DON'T require you to take levels of soulknife. Levels are more important than feats. Even starting off with fighter levels rather than soulknife easily makes up the difference.

"Obviously a caster is going to beat this?" Well, hang on a minute. Take a look at something like the Crusader. He's good. Real good. At melee, he can hold his own even against the mighty CoDzilla. He's BETTER at it, in fact. THAT is a good class. THAT is a well-made class. THAT is an example of WotC seeing a problem with one of the classic archetypes and putting out material that actually lets you do what you want without having to be a caster. Not the case for the Soulbow. If you're a caster, you're better at archery. Straight up. And you have loads of other options. Not wanting to play a caster implies that there is something wrong with a caster archer other than the internet stigma associated with casters.

And, okay, even with the thunderously huge number of spellcasting archers aside, you still have many, many precision-based archery builds that will deal a heck of a lot more damage, which is the truly important thing. You could even start arguing the case of stuff like Bloodstorm Blade or Warlock. Given that the Soulbow doesn't actually use a bow (this thread aside, heh) they've got just as much right to be called an archer, and, again, become much more powerful. You can even compare all these non-magic alternatives to the spellcaster ones and see that they'll do more damage than even the caster archers, though the casters are still a better choice in terms of doing something other than perforating your enemy with wooden shafts.