(3.5) Knockdown Charger?

[AtwasAwamps]

I had a very odd idea for a build that I’d like to share. It’s not so much odd as “This might be fun” but I’m not sure of the mechanics. Some explanation/advice would be great.

Race: Half Orc (Desert Variant from UA - +2 con -2 Int)
Class: Lion Totem (CC) Barb 1/Fighter 4/Psy War 2/Slayer 10/Psy War to finish.

Essential Feats:

Track (slayer prereq)
Combat Expertise (prereq)
Improved Trip (prereq)
Knockdown
Robilar’s Gambit
Headlong Rush
Shocktrooper
Leap Attack

The Point:

Take a headlong rush through a large mass of opponents, with Robilar’s Gambit up, intentionally provoking so that you can get your counterattacks as you rush by. Each AoO you take is countered by an AoO you make that can potentially knock your foe over, subjecting them to a second attack. End the charge with a pounce + one extra attack at the end of the chain because you provoke an AoO from your target.

It sort of remind me of Diablo IIs Whirlwind Barbarian…

The point of this build would be to have a devastating charge that will knock opponents out of the way on your way to your primary target, who will eat an enormous amount of damage from a full attack with a maxed power attack from a near-full BAB Combatant, possibly while it is raging. Psychic Warrior has some absolutely great defensive powers that can be used to keep this build alive on this extremely risky charge. Concealing Amorpha/Vigor, and Vampiric Weapon would soften the risk of this assault.

Alternatives (one of these is probably much better):

Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Psy War 2/Slayer X
1 Less fighter feat, Improved Trip for Free. Worthwhile in Point Buy/Bad Rolling situations, certainly. Gain Pounce via Psionic Pounce.

Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Psy War 2/Slayer X
Faster Entry into Slayer, loses a feat, but faster power acceleration.

Would this work? What am I missing? And how would damage work during the charge-Does Headlong Rush only multiple the final attack on the charge or would it count for all of them made during it? And where does leap attack’s damage kick in?

[Person_Man]

Instead of vampiric weapon, consider the standard Claws of the Beast/Vampire King of Smack combo. The damage/healing output will be much higher. You'll also probably need to invest in Tumble (cross class, no need to dip since the DC's are fixed and you can buy Skill boosting items), extra reach from Expansion, and some method of of Charging in a non strait line, like Psionic Charge.

[Reverent-One]

Each AoO you take is countered by an AoO you make that can potentially knock your foe over, subjecting them to a second attack.

Actually, this is something I have a question about. If you make a trip attack thanks to Knockdown, do you get the second attack mentioned in Improved trip?

[AtwasAwamps]

Claws of the Beast/Vampire King of Smack combo. The damage/healing output will be much higher.

Is this true? I thought it takes quite a bit of shennanigans to get CotB/VKoS to have significantly higher damage. How can I get the "foe-tossing charge" i'm looking for while having room for the boosts needed to claws?

Actually, this is something I have a question about. If you make a trip attack thanks to Knockdown, do you get the second attack mentioned in Improved trip?

I would rule yes, and the DM I most often play with does the same. DUnno how it works by RAI.

[Arakune]

Most probably yes, since the extra attack after a trip is from the improved trip feat, not the tripping part.

[AtwasAwamps]

Ugh. A little more research is making this more and more irritating to get together. Sure I can get the cohesive build together by level 20, but I'd like it to be playable before then. Urgh.

I'm going to check my books tonight and try to come up with something that's vaguely playable 1-20 for this concept. I really, really want to work both knockdown and knockback in here...if I could do that, I'd really get the foe-tossing charge I wanted, especially if I could combine it with shock trooper (directed bull rush would allow me to seriously scatter or clump my opponents up as I rushed past them). Hrmm...

EDIT: This is the fastest I could get the feats to get this build working the way I want it together. It's playable at level 6 in that you will be able to pull off the knockdown charge. This is assuming play starts at level 1. Barb is a stronger class to start with, with more skills and hit points and rage helping you out.

1: Barb 1: Combat Reflexes
2: Barb 2: Improved Trip
3: Fighter 1: Knockdown, Power Attack
4: Fighter 2: Headlong Rush
5: Psywar 1: Dodge
6: Psywar 2: Improved Bull Rush, Karmic Strike

At this level, you can now make a charge, using vigor to soak some of the damge, but much of it is going to hurt you. It's risky, but that's what headlong rush does. However, you'll still be able to cause quite a bit of damage to your enemy forces like this.

7: Slayer 1:
8: Slayer 2:
9: Slayer 3: Shock Trooper

Adding Shock Trooper will increase your vulnerability, but at this point you can throw down a vampiric weapon on your sword, hopefully helping you soak up a little HP and negating the damage you take as you clever through enemy ranks.

10: Slayer 4
11: Slayer 5
12: Slayer 6: Knockback

Throw up expansion, charge, and you really do become a shocktrooper...enemy formations would be utterly destroyed as you charge and attack every enemy who makes their attacks of opportunity on you. Depending on DM ruling about leap attack and Headlong Rush, you may hit them for something like 2(Weapon Damage + Strength Bonus + 2(Power Attack Damage)). Couple that with Knockback and shocktrooper and you're sending prone enemies rolling across the floor to trip up other enemies. And since you're larger or larger, you'll be smacking them again...and their friends, if improved trip gives you an attack after successfully tripping someone with their own friends rolling form.

All this before you even reach your target! It's no flaming homer, but I think its viable and might be fun.

[Darrin]

Actually, this is something I have a question about. If you make a trip attack thanks to Knockdown, do you get the second attack mentioned in Improved trip?

That's a matter of some debate... if you go by the Sword & Fist errata, no. If you go by the feat as written in the Divine section of the SRD (which has no such errata), yes, yes you do.

[SethFahad]

Actually, this is something I have a question about. If you make a trip attack thanks to Knockdown, do you get the second attack mentioned in Improved trip?

There is a similar question in FAQ.

If I use Mighty Throw (ToB 73) or another maneuver that allows me to trip a foe, does the Improved Trip feat grant me an extra attack against that opponent?

Yes. The Improved Trip feat applies any time you trip a foe in melee combat, even if that trip comes from a special power.

I think this answer fits well in your question too.

[Kaiyanwang]

In S&F errata, is stated that you either trip and make an additianal attack due to improved trip, or you attack and make a bonus trip due to knockdown.

Attack - Trip - Attack does not work.

[SethFahad]

In S&F errata, is stated that you either trip and make an additianal attack due to improved trip, or you attack and make a bonus trip due to knockdown.

Attack - Trip - Attack does not work.

Well then, since he has Imp. bull-rush, may I suggest that he dumps Knockdown, and get Knockback + Shock Trooper (Domino Rush).
Bull rush+free trip against multiple enemies+extra attack from Imp.Trip.

[Person_Man]

Is this true? I thought it takes quite a bit of shennanigans to get CotB/VKoS to have significantly higher damage. How can I get the "foe-tossing charge" i'm looking for while having room for the boosts needed to claws?

Claws of the Vampire and Vampiric Blade heal 50% of the base damage of your claws or weapon. Additional damage dealt because of a high Strength score or other enhancements does not count toward the amount you heal. Things like Power Attack and Sneak Attack are also not considered base damage.

At the manifester level your build is at, the base damage for your Claws of the Beast will be 4d6 damage, and that's before even the most modest of buffs are added to it (Expansion, Improved Natural Attack, Overchannel, other stuff). At best, the base damage for any other weapon you use will be 2d6ish. And it's much more difficult to improve the base damage of any other weapon (except for Unarmed Strike, which doesn't count as a manufactured weapon for Vampiric Blade unless you want to take a level of Monk).

If you don't like the strait forward solution of Claws of the Beast for whatever reason, there are other options for retributive healing. But your build doesn't have any Binder, Crusader, or spellcasting in it, and I doubt that your DM would let you use a Starmantle Cloak or Retributive Amulet.

I would rule yes, and the DM I most often play with does the same. DUnno how it works by RAI.

As Darrin and Kaiyanwang pointed out, the errata says no. Knockdown just changes the order from Touch Attack->Opposed Check->Attack Roll to Attack Roll->Opposed Check. It's still worthwhile because you will miss less often. Your DM might be more liberal though. It's certainly a common point of debate.


Also, Knockback requires Large size or Powerful Build. You can't qualify for it as a Half-Orc, because Expansion isn't permanent. Once you return to your medium size, you would lose the feat. If you want to play a Flaming Homer bowling ball build, you'll need to be a Goaliath, Half-Giant, or Half-Ogre.

[AtwasAwamps]

Thanks for the response on the claws. That's probably the way to go with that then. I'd forgotten how easy it was to augment the claws. And I thought you would still the keep the feat if your size went down, but that you just wouldn't be able to make use of it?

I'd have to talk to my DM, I guess. Thanks for the help folks!

[PhoenixRivers]

I had a very odd idea for a build that I’d like to share. It’s not so much odd as “This might be fun” but I’m not sure of the mechanics. Some explanation/advice would be great.

Race: Half Orc (Desert Variant from UA - +2 con -2 Int)
Class: Lion Totem (CC) Barb 1/Fighter 4/Psy War 2/Slayer 10/Psy War to finish.

Essential Feats:

Track (slayer prereq)
Combat Expertise (prereq)
Improved Trip (prereq)
Knockdown
Robilar’s Gambit
Headlong Rush
Shocktrooper
Leap Attack

The Point:

Take a headlong rush through a large mass of opponents, with Robilar’s Gambit up, intentionally provoking so that you can get your counterattacks as you rush by. Each AoO you take is countered by an AoO you make that can potentially knock your foe over, subjecting them to a second attack. End the charge with a pounce + one extra attack at the end of the chain because you provoke an AoO from your target.

It sort of remind me of Diablo IIs Whirlwind Barbarian…

The point of this build would be to have a devastating charge that will knock opponents out of the way on your way to your primary target, who will eat an enormous amount of damage from a full attack with a maxed power attack from a near-full BAB Combatant, possibly while it is raging. Psychic Warrior has some absolutely great defensive powers that can be used to keep this build alive on this extremely risky charge. Concealing Amorpha/Vigor, and Vampiric Weapon would soften the risk of this assault.

Alternatives (one of these is probably much better):

Wolf Totem Barbarian 2/Fighter 2/Psy War 2/Slayer X
1 Less fighter feat, Improved Trip for Free. Worthwhile in Point Buy/Bad Rolling situations, certainly. Gain Pounce via Psionic Pounce.

Lion Totem Barbarian 1/Fighter 2/Psy War 2/Slayer X
Faster Entry into Slayer, loses a feat, but faster power acceleration.

Would this work? What am I missing? And how would damage work during the charge-Does Headlong Rush only multiple the final attack on the charge or would it count for all of them made during it? And where does leap attack’s damage kick in?

What happens when the creature responds to an AoO offering by... tripping? Disarming? Sundering? Grappling?

That may halt the charge.

The best thing about barbarian chargers is that they see something big and hit it. If everything on the battlefield gets an attack on you, it makes things a bit more difficult on the survival side.

[Ernir]

How about a half-minotaur/half-orc? Still an orc, but the half-minotaur templates makes you one large Orc. I think that should let you qualify for both Knockback and Headlong Rush.

[Person_Man]

What happens when the creature responds to an AoO offering by... tripping? Disarming? Sundering? Grappling?

That may halt the charge.

Well, if you're a Psychic Warrior with reasonably stats that's built for Tripping, then the chances of them winning an opposed Str check against for a Trip or Grapple should be pretty low. If you're using Claws, then Disarm and Sunder are useless.

[tyckspoon]

Thanks for the response on the claws. That's probably the way to go with that then. I'd forgotten how easy it was to augment the claws. And I thought you would still the keep the feat if your size went down, but that you just wouldn't be able to make use of it?

That is correct to my understanding. There is no rule that says you have to have a permanent quality to select a feat- you must simply qualify when you select the feat, and again for any instance where you wish to use the feat. In those times where you do not have the qualification it simply becomes a null feat slot. This offends some DMs' senses of correctness, but it's how the rules work (if your DM is one such DM, point out that a PsyWar can be Large on demand for significant stretches of time, which would afford ample opportunity to practice Big Guy tactics like Knockdown.)