[3.5] What would you consider to be the most balanced level(s)?

[Zovc]

So, many people complain about D&D 3.5's balance, and that isn't what I want this discussion to be about that as a whole. Instead, I'm curious as to what level ranges you personally think the game is *most* balanced at, even if you think the game is *never* balanced.

Now, the term 'balanced' is kind of vague, seeing as many things powers seem to have been misplaced due to rule oversights, etc. I'm mostly asking about balance between classes, but there have to be a lot of other factors that come into play to truly compare whether or not they are balanced. However you demonstrate balance is up to you, but simply comparing base attack bonuses, for example, isn't a very thorough 'case.'

As far as what you have to compare, that is also up to you, but I think that 'core' material should be included in comparisons either as a 'control,' or simply so that you can demonstrate how 'broken' it is, or whatever else.

[Eldariel]

Level 1. Everyone is down in one hit, everyone can kill anything in one hit. Binary game, yay.

[krossbow]

Level 1. Everyone is down in one hit, everyone can kill anything in one hit. Binary game, yay.

can i play a housecat?

[tyckspoon]

3 up to about 10. 3-6 or so is where the game naturally works for me; when you hit 4th and 5th level effects you can still make it work, but it takes more effort to guide it into a balanced playstyle. Below 3 is too randomized, with starting stats being as or more important as your actual class.. basically I don't consider it 'balanced' if you're still in a range where an MM-standard Orc has a viable chance of one-shotting a party member.

[sofawall]

I tend to prefer playing in the rather narrow range of 5-9. I don't necessarily think it's the most balanced, but it's not as bad as, say, level 17.

[JaronK]

The higher level you are, the worse it gets, but at level 1 there's some nasty binary instant kills, so I'd say level 2-6 or so is about right.

JaronK

[krossbow]

I tend to prefer playing in the rather narrow range of 5-9. I don't necessarily think it's the most balanced, but it's not as bad as, say, level 17.

On topic, I like the 6-12 range. once you get past there, unless your DM makes sure to sucker punch magic with houserules, things can get out of hand.

[PersonMan]

On topic, I like the 6-12 range. once you get past there, unless your DM makes sure to sucker punch magic with houserules, things can get out of hand.

It depends on the party composition. I'm lucky in that the only heavy optimizer in my group tends to play fighters, leading to a rather balanced group, for the most part.

[El Dorado]

I like 3rd to 7th. Each class starts coming into its own but no one class can really dominate a situation.

[Tinydwarfman]

I think 6th is probably the most balanced. Not 4th level spells, but still the iconics, and odd numbers are never good unless you hate spontaneous casters.
You also get 1st iterative, decent customization, and other nice stuff. There's a reason it's E6 (not that I play it).

[Vaecae]

I like 3rd to 7th. Each class starts coming into its own but no one class can really dominate a situation.

I'd have to go with the above, which is probly why I like starting at around level 4 for most groups. You still have enough flex even that low to also have good flavor going on as well a being able to have abilities that compliment eachother within a party. If you mean balance in like pc versus pc fighting then the right feats on a fighter type can really kill, but I'd still say 3-7 ish is pretty well balanced maybe up as high as 10 if people aren't optimizing.

[The Rabbler]

I think levels 8-12 is when the game is the most balanced; most characters are starting to really reap the rewards from their PrCs and options in a situation open up farther than the normal "I cast spell x" or "I move and attack" without the casters breaking the world one spell at a time.

then again, it isnt that much of a problem with my group; the casters resign themselves to blasting and buffing while the rest of the group makes glass cannons or skillmonkies. and then I make the meatsacks.

[Gnorman]

Definitely somewhere in the 6-10 range. I like E6, but I also like my players to reap a few benefits from their hard-earned prestige classes. I like to play E8-E10, personally, even though I know it introduces a few problem spells. Any more than that, and casters pull so far ahead of the competition that anybody playing anything else starts to feel like they need powergaming Cialis to compete. And that's never a good thing.

[AslanCross]

5-10 is the sweet spot for me.

[bosssmiley]

1-10 (or 3-12 if playing with crybabies who lack the cunning to keep their low level characters alive).

E6 and old D&D ftw.

[742]

i would say 5-9 would be the most balanced; most of the instakill level 1 spells stop working at 5 HD and level 5 spells arent quite crazy, only one or two teleports a day ect. its (comparatively) easy to keep things controlled and predict what your players are going to do. at level twenty its
"'player 1: crap, our rogue is dead, our cleric has no rez until sunrise and our wizard doesnt have knock or disentigrate in his spellbook today.'
'player 2: i know! ill cast super empowered acid control weather and erode the roof away, then we can fly in! except i only prepared it with enlarge spell today'
'other players: yeah dont worry; it'l be fine'
'dm's thoughts: you bastards! your a mile away from the capital in the middle of the empires main farmland! you asked for a world with complex economics and political tension! i also have to figure out what the roof is made of and how much acid rain it takes to destroy and if i could kill one of you with this stone dragon figurine i was going to use for the encounter tonight before the others restrained me'"
at level five its "crap, our rogue failed her open locks check and our wizard didnt prepare knock today; buff me so i can rage and try to smash it down!"

it can stay sorta okay until level 14 or 15 without full casters but by that time even part casters get a little out of hand and D&D without magic is bland and unfun and if your even considering it then you should really consider trying another system sometime. starting a few levels in also lets you start with an interesting backstory of your character's early career.
[text ]sorry for the completely incoherent post although i suppose my normal isnt much better. i tried editing it further but at this point im probably doing more harm than good. i hope i managed to get my point across at least pseudo coherently[/text]

[Vizzerdrix]

3~8 range. Maybe 7, if one of the top 5s. Any cut off point before 9th level. I've seen too many killer combos come together at 9th level.

[Deepblue706]

I think the game is most balanced somewhere around the range of 2 to 6. 2-6 specifically ends with casters at level 3 spells, which I've never seen demonstrated to be overwhelmingly good (if still pretty cool).

[valadil]

I'd start with level 3 or 4. Probably 4 so that full casters all have level 2 spells. The end would be somewhere between 8 and 12.

[Kaiyanwang]

Balanced..

The game is more balanced in the 4-12 range IMO.

But I love both the fist level randomness (it makes people smarter od dead) and the power of high levels.

Said this, that's the part more likely to be balanced. This, obviously, does not mean that it's the only worthy to be played, quite the opposite.

[Nero24200]

Levels 4-8 seems to be the best in my opinion. You have enough from your class that you're well defined, but it takes more than a little bad luck to take you down. Also, whilst dependent on magical gear, it isn't too excessive (unlike higher levels, where magic items are so common that punching a fighter in the face is likely to knock out an enchanted +5 flamming tooth).

Having said that, I do feel other level ranges have some merit. I like the gritty aspect of level 1 games, in fact, for a short while I actually played with a group that played level 1 games exclussivly. The tactics and gameplay seemed very different from a standard campaign, but was alot of fun I must admit. And likewise, if a DM can manage with teh headaches that is high level magic - high level games can be quite fun as well, though miles harder to balance.

Edit: Also, I would say that lower levels (usally 3 to 6ish) tends to work better withnewbies as well. Once characters reach epic, in my experience, they fall into one of two catagories: Supersuck or Superwin.

These catagories aren't exclussive to epic though. I feel that the characters lean more and more towards them the higher they go.

[Seffbasilisk]

4-6 IMO. The melee classes still have staying power without specializing, the spellcasters are starting to come into strength without being too pivotal, and the support characters are still relevant.

[JaronK]

I think the game is most balanced somewhere around the range of 2 to 6. 2-6 specifically ends with casters at level 3 spells, which I've never seen demonstrated to be overwhelmingly good (if still pretty cool).

Summon Mirror Mephit is a game breaking 2nd level spell, and I'd argue that Clerics with Animate Dead can really warp the game balance at level 5. But yeah, there's definitely fewer of those before you get into the higher levels, and at least at that level the extra attack from 6 BAB feels like a lot. So, I agree, but there's certainly already some nasty stuff.

JaronK

[Person_Man]

It really depends on the group.

If your party is Monk 20, Samurai 20, Ninja 20, Healer 20, Warmage 20, then everyone is pretty balanced and combat will be predictable (and probably boring after a few encounters).

If your party is Cleric 7, Druid 7, Archivist 7, Artificer 7, Wizard 7, and people are pulling out stuff like Polymorph on a regular basis, then everyone could potentially be very strong or very weak (depending on their build and spell choices) and combat could be difficult for the DM to balance.

Regardless, any balance issue with 3.5 can be fixed by an experienced DM. If a PC is too weak, just give them more/better/perfectly tailored treasure to improve them, and talk to them about how they could improve their build or tactics. If a PC is too powerful, then just give your enemies more powers/spells/reinforcements as needed.

It's not an easy task, but it does allow for a far broader range of game options, which for me is the entire point of a roleplaying game. If I want balance, I'll play Heroclix.

[Eldariel]

If your party is Monk 20, Samurai 20, Ninja 20, Healer 20, Warmage 20, then everyone is pretty balanced and combat will be predictable (and probably boring after a few encounters).

Actually, in that party I'd imagine Healer to be kicking ass and chewing bubblegum; they have Gate as a level 9 spell. The reason for their tier is that it's a level 9 spell, but once they do have access to it, it fixes a lot.

[Toliudar]

I concur - I like starting in the 4-6 range, and drifting out of a campaign around level 12.

[krossbow]

I think the game is most balanced somewhere around the range of 2 to 6. 2-6 specifically ends with casters at level 3 spells, which I've never seen demonstrated to be overwhelmingly good (if still pretty cool).

Bleh. Its balanced, but i find that low level games have issues giving players alot of juicy class features to throw around at level 2 and 3, even up to 6. Alot of Play styles (dual wielding whirlwind type character as an example) are pretty feat heavy as well, meaning it can be hard to make it work until level 3 or 6 if your not a human.

Nothing against having fun in those situations, i Just find that level 6 is THE sweet spot level, when you get a decent number of feats and abilities to use, and lower levels can be hard to flesh out.

[BRC]

3rd (Or forth) to Tenth level.

Before that, you don't have enough room to really customize your characters. After that, Caster's really start taking off.
During that level range though, you're characters are tough enough to do cool things, but weak enough to be threatened by mundane things like armies or town guards. You're high enough level for the DM to use Mook Fights, which are always awesome. Casters start getting nifty spells, but only in limited amounts, forcing you to save them for tough situations.

[alisbin]

6-12, you've got enough levels to make your character as unique as you'd like it to be, spells are powerful, but still reasonably limited and non casters still have the ability to not suck completely in comparison*.


*your mileage may vary, void where prohibited by stupid/stingy/monty haul DMs

[Endarire]

It largely depends on the party's composition and resources. A determined Wizard9 can make an undead army by animating or commanding spawn-making undead. He can get a small task force of elite minions with the planar binding series. He can probably buy a scroll of simulacrum and copy his favorite high-powered creature. (See Solars, Genies, Ethergaunts, and Mirror Mephits.)

Mind you, he must be careful about the power he accumulates, lest he draws too much attention.